Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 04.01.2012, 16:13
cyrus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Emmenbruecke
Posts: 2,960
Groaned at 26 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 3,104 Times in 1,325 Posts
cyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
Yes, I'm serious. Read up on the Cambridge study if I remember correctly.

Or you could watch this quick video which also quotes that number but I read the Cambridge study a while back if I remember correctly.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...65539#42965539


I know that people often leave forums when they cannot support their point of view with facts. I don't want to come across like that but this takes more time than I want to spend time on. I have to get back to work now but wanted to quickly reply to you as you didn't believe the number I posted.
The Cambridge University (Who I'm guessing did the cambridge study you think you read) is a partner with the National Autistic Society, so it's very likely that PaddyG has the correct figures. I think you need to go back and double check.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 04.01.2012, 16:34
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wadi
Posts: 7,537
Groaned at 138 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 9,547 Times in 3,998 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
I know that people often leave forums when they cannot support their point of view with facts. I don't want to come across like that but this takes more time than I want to spend time on. I have to get back to work now but wanted to quickly reply to you as you didn't believe the number I posted.
I guess the problem with this forum is that it's a general forum with people from all walks of life with only the ability to write English and have some tangible link with Switzerland linking them.

On the "I love homeopathy" forum or the "Children with Frankenstein-type forehead support group" forum, you're much more likely to have people who totally agree with your view point.

IMO, facts are important when discussing your children's health. Less so when discussing their spiritual well-being.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 06.01.2012, 08:49
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Solothurn
Posts: 660
Groaned at 66 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 541 Times in 277 Posts
Enaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
Not trying to bait you- but as you have a science background, can you scientifically explain how homeopathy works? It's been a heated subject of discussion here before, but I've never read a scientist's explanation.
Favourite explanation from the scientists is PLACEBO because they can't come up with anything better.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Enaj for this useful post:
  #64  
Old 06.01.2012, 08:50
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Solothurn
Posts: 660
Groaned at 66 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 541 Times in 277 Posts
Enaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
Well said and true indeed. But there's still enough anecdotal debate to scare people off from vaccinations. I met a woman many years ago whose child was diagnosed with autism very shortly after a vaccination. Nothing anyone says will convince her it's a coincidence and not due to the vaccine. I have my reservations too.
Never underestimate a mother's intuition!!!
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 06.01.2012, 08:51
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wadi
Posts: 7,537
Groaned at 138 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 9,547 Times in 3,998 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
Favourite explanation from the scientists is PLACEBO because they can't come up with anything better.
I think you'll find that what they are actually saying is that it doesn't perform better than a placebo.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 06.01.2012, 08:58
little_isabella's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,178
Groaned at 23 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 1,387 Times in 550 Posts
little_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond reputelittle_isabella has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/m...urrentPage=all
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:00
sylvain74's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 299
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 114 Times in 76 Posts
sylvain74 has a reputation beyond reputesylvain74 has a reputation beyond reputesylvain74 has a reputation beyond reputesylvain74 has a reputation beyond reputesylvain74 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
Favourite explanation from the scientists is PLACEBO because they can't come up with anything better.
Or, equivalently, those who claim that homeopathy does better than placebo have no clue about science or evidence-based medicine.
I think we all agree then!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank sylvain74 for this useful post:
  #68  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:01
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Solothurn
Posts: 660
Groaned at 66 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 541 Times in 277 Posts
Enaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond reputeEnaj has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
I think you'll find that what they are actually saying is that it doesn't perform better than a placebo.

Dear Tom - you are always so pedantic!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:07
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 3,740
Groaned at 155 Times in 107 Posts
Thanked 9,812 Times in 2,760 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
I think you'll find that what they are actually saying is that it doesn't perform better than a placebo.
No, Tom, they don't know where to place their comments, so they brush off alternatives with generalized statistics.

Statistics prove nothing when you're dealing with individuals. Medical practitioners study the human body as a physical entity, blood, organs, bones and everything you can touch. If you look at what alternatives there are, you will hear terms such as "emotional, trauma induced and cell memory". We humans are way more complex than just a network of tubes and vessels pumping blood under our skin. In my opinion (and as with many alternative medicine sources) our early lives (especially from birth until the age of 7) are critical of how we develop emotionally and our environment, especially our parents and close family form the way we are going to be for the rest of our lives.

Now that's only my point of view and no, I don't have a shred of evidence, but having studied and taken a variety of alternative courses and read up on the subject, I am convinced that our emotional well being is directly linked to our physical and medical state of health throughout our lives. We are living masses of energy, we give and take as we go. How else can you explain good vibes around certain people and the desire to avoid others even when you have never met them before? Put two people in a room and they will communicate even without obvious references to language or signs, that is energy being transmitted. Animals have that ability and so do we, we just favor language to energy transmission these days.

Now that's enough. I have to go swim with the dolphins and improve my algebra ....
__________________
Crash your karma into little bits of happiness
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:10
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 7,351
Groaned at 109 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,015 Times in 3,750 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

It's an important distinction.

The former says that it works but scientests don't really know why (incorrect, they do know why it appears to work - it's the placebo effect).

The latter that even if it does work sometimes, it's no better than placebo, so you might as well use placebo, as it's cheaper.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:23
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 4,197
Groaned at 113 Times in 85 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
No, Tom, they don't know where to place their comments, so they brush off alternatives with generalized statistics.

Statistics prove nothing when you're dealing with individuals. Medical practitioners study the human body as a physical entity, blood, organs, bones and everything you can touch. If you look at what alternatives there are, you will hear terms such as "emotional, trauma induced and cell memory". We humans are way more complex than just a network of tubes and vessels pumping blood under our skin. In my opinion (and as with many alternative medicine sources) our early lives (especially from birth until the age of 7) are critical of how we develop emotionally and our environment, especially our parents and close family form the way we are going to be for the rest of our lives.

Now that's only my point of view and no, I don't have a shred of evidence, but having studied and taken a variety of alternative courses and read up on the subject, I am convinced that our emotional well being is directly linked to our physical and medical state of health throughout our lives. We are living masses of energy, we give and take as we go. How else can you explain good vibes around certain people and the desire to avoid others even when you have never met them before? Put two people in a room and they will communicate even without obvious references to language or signs, that is energy being transmitted. Animals have that ability and so do we, we just favor language to energy transmission these days.

Now that's enough. I have to go swim with the dolphins and improve my algebra ....
Your belief in science, engineering and the scientific method is stronger when it comes to your day job, i assume?

It baffles me that seemingly smart people have a belief that diluting a substance to a point that there is not a single molecule is left in the medication is an effective form of treatment because

1. A German doctor 200 years ago decided that what causes something can cure it, and
2. That by hitting the mixing vessel ten times with a leather stick (still done in homoepathy factories) that the water has a memory of the SPECIFIC element we want it to remember

Surely all water in the world now has homeopathic properties given the number of cycles it has - it must have "memory" of all the homeopathic material it ever encountered
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Caviarchips for this useful post:
  #72  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:29
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wadi
Posts: 7,537
Groaned at 138 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 9,547 Times in 3,998 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
Now that's only my point of view and no, I don't have a shred of evidence, but having studied and taken a variety of alternative courses and read up on the subject, I am convinced that our emotional well being is directly linked to our physical and medical state of health throughout our lives.
That's a widely accepted conventional view now.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #73  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:33
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundabout Basel
Posts: 6,889
Groaned at 83 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 8,669 Times in 3,711 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
Favourite explanation from the scientists is PLACEBO because they can't come up with anything better.
Personally, I find this a better explanation than anything a "homeopath" can come up with.

You may find this surprising, Enaj, but the placebo effect is as fascinating as it is frustrating for scientists as it is something that creates confusion and is deserving of attention (unlike homeopathy ).

My "back-of-the-fag" explanation: simply nature's natural healing process in action - and nothing to do with homeopathy and adding extra water.

The human body has its own healing mechanisms - we are constantly being attacked by organisms (e.g. bacteria, viruses etc.), chemicals and other harmful stimuli (e.g. UV light, alcohol, tobacco etc.) and our own failings (e.g. cancer). Yet our fantastic immune system usually manages all, and only when it fails do we usually seek help from Drs.

People underestimate the body's natural healing power. Sometimes it doesn't work, but it does more often than not. In those major situations where it doesn't work, these are often "end of the line" conditions where the body cannot cope anymore, e.g. cancer, heart failure, liver failure, diabetes etc.

Now, IF, people need a crutch to help them along so be it. But please don't try to sell homeopathy as a "cure" as it is misleading, and one could argue criminally so. If I had a choice between aspirin and homeopathy, I'd take the one which has been proven to work. Likewise with cancer, RA, heart failure, stroke, diabetes and many other treatments.

Quote:
View Post
<snip>In my opinion (and as with many alternative medicine sources) our early lives (especially from birth until the age of 7) are critical of how we develop emotionally and our environment, especially our parents and close family form the way we are going to be for the rest of our lives.

<snip>I am convinced that our emotional well being is directly linked to our physical and medical state of health throughout our lives. <snip>
As Tom points out, both these points are well accepted by the medical community, however, and this is the important bit, they (the medical community) use "evidence-based" methods for treating conditions.

The problem for them is that there is no real evidence to back up the mumbo-jumbo of homeopathy beyond taking a shot in the dark and relying on placebo. Blame statistics if you want, but that's the state of the situation at the moment.

If Drs new that "alternative approaches" X, Y or Z would cure patients they'd be using them and health authorities would be paying for them in a heart beat.

The issue is lack of proof beyond "you just have to believe".
__________________
Never let right or wrong get in the way of a good opinion
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
  #74  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:38
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 3,740
Groaned at 155 Times in 107 Posts
Thanked 9,812 Times in 2,760 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
Your belief in science, engineering and the scientific method is stronger when it comes to your day job, i assume?

It baffles me that seemingly smart people have a belief that diluting a substance to a point that there is not a single molecule is left in the medication is an effective form of treatment because
You're comparing mechanics with living beings to prove a point? Not valid.

I have no idea how homeopathy works or if it does. I do know that if I play sports and take a knock, then by taking Arnica the bruising subsides quicker, but that may also be subjective of course

The point is that one can never definitively compare one remedy to another because the set of circumstances are never the same. The human body is constantly changing and what might help this week could worsen the symptoms next week. The body gives you a constant stream of information that only you may be able to decipher. By following basic principles such as a healthy diet and enough sleep you can avoid a lot of illnesses from the get go. If you dig deep into everyone's past there are always going to be pointers as to what is going on.

Just as an example, without intentionally breaking any patient confidentiality; a couple of years ago during a seminar we had a few test patients and one guy who had suffered from lung cancer due to smoking was raving about how his health had apparently recovered after changing his lifestyle and diet. Now on the face of this it was all good, but digging deeper it became apparent that this guy was simply "stealing" his energy from his wife. I still remember this grey figure sulking in his shadows, almost apologetic that she had come along. We did what we do and asked her a bunch of questions and it was apparent to us that the guy really had made a recovery to the detriment of his own wife who looked far older than her age. You can, of course, come up with your own theories if it makes you happy, but for us it was as clear as day.
__________________
Crash your karma into little bits of happiness
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #75  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:41
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundabout Basel
Posts: 6,889
Groaned at 83 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 8,669 Times in 3,711 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
I have no idea how homeopathy works or if it does. I do know that if I play sports and take a knock, then by taking Arnica the bruising subsides quicker, but that may also be subjective of course

AARRGGHHHH! How many times do "we" need to say it. Arnica is a herbal remedy. Not a homeopathic one...

Medicinal uses

Arnica montana has been used medicinally for centuries, however there are no scientific studies that prove the medical effectiveness.[1] The roots contain derivatives of thymol,[3] which are used as fungicides and preservatives. Arnica is currently used in liniment and ointment preparations used for strains, sprains, and bruises. Commercial arnica preparations are frequently used by professional athletes.[4]
The thymol derivatives concentrated in the plants roots have been clinically shown to be effective vasodilators of subcutaneous blood capillaries. A study of wound-healing after surgery to treat varicose veins found a trend towards a beneficial effect of reduction of pain and hematoma following surgery.[5]
__________________
Never let right or wrong get in the way of a good opinion
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
  #76  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:45
sylvain74's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 299
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 114 Times in 76 Posts
sylvain74 has a reputation beyond reputesylvain74 has a reputation beyond reputesylvain74 has a reputation beyond reputesylvain74 has a reputation beyond reputesylvain74 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
If I had a choice between aspirin and homeopathy, I'd take the one which has been proven to work. Likewise with cancer, RA, heart failure, stroke, diabetes and many other treatments.
You forget that homeopathy DOES work. This has been proven many times over. Of course it's been known for a long time now that it works through the placebo effect, but that doesn't mean it cannot do better than aspirin. It only means that it is not the sugar pill that cures you in homeopathy: it's the whole process of hearing about all these anecdotal stories, receiving a lot of attention from your homeopath, etc... This is no use for some disease like cancer or AIDS, though (unfortunately, your deluded homeopath may tell you otherwise).
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:52
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundabout Basel
Posts: 6,889
Groaned at 83 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 8,669 Times in 3,711 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
You forget that homeopathy DOES work. This has been proven many times over. Of course it's been known for a long time now that it works through the placebo effect, but that doesn't mean it cannot do better than aspirin. It only means that it is not the sugar pill that cures you in homeopathy: it's the whole process of hearing about all these anecdotal stories, receiving a lot of attention from your homeopath, etc... This is no use for some disease like cancer or AIDS, though (unfortunately, your deluded homeopath may tell you otherwise).
OMG. You can't be serious. You are arguing that something works by doing nothing other than trying to stimulate an effect based on a random chance of working.

Go homeopathy!

Oh, and I'd argue that it hasn't been proven many times over in a real RCT.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:52
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 3,740
Groaned at 155 Times in 107 Posts
Thanked 9,812 Times in 2,760 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
AARRGGHHHH! How many times do "we" need to say it. Arnica is a herbal remedy. Not a homeopathic one...
Point taken, but what do you think that the trace matter is then in homeopathic gobules? They're all herbal or mineral based, not moon rock!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #79  
Old 06.01.2012, 09:52
Aline.marandet's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Eglisau, ZH
Posts: 157
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 63 Times in 35 Posts
Aline.marandet has no particular reputation at present
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Don't know how old your kids might be but... in order to enter the 'regular' public school system, there are mandatory vaccinations to be had... good luck !
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 06.01.2012, 10:01
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundabout Basel
Posts: 6,889
Groaned at 83 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 8,669 Times in 3,711 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Natural / Homeopathic Pediatrician

Quote:
View Post
Point taken, but what do you think that the trace matter is then in homeopathic gobules? They're all herbal or mineral based, not moon rock!
I don't use homeopathic arnica. That'd be the same as using homeopathic avastin, aspirin, itinerol etc...
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Homeopathic doctor in Basel Swiss Cynic Other/general 9 20.09.2010 16:16
homeopathic bomb Lou Jokes/funnies 2 16.09.2010 15:43
Homeopathic consultant prashantb03 Commercial 7 08.04.2010 22:38
Next steps for a homeopathic phsysican mbaaspirant Employment 5 06.08.2009 18:56
[Romandie] Homeopathic Vets lumpy Daily life 4 26.01.2008 16:43


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 15:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0