Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:02
Sbrinz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Suisse ouest
Posts: 1,614
Groaned at 54 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 1,212 Times in 642 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Reversing an adoption of 2 children

A friend of a friend of mine (a man aged 66 years) married a lady some years ago. During the marriage he adopted her two children from a previous relationship. Now, many years later, they are agreeing to a Swiss divorce, and this should not be a problem.

The problem is his earlier own two children have seen their inheritance diluted and are now asking their father to disinherit the two adopted children. My friend thinks even if the two reach maturity, he cannot simply disavow them, and under Swiss law they are entitled to an equal share of his estate.

A very difficult situation, and I am sympathetic to both sets of children.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:13
MacGregor's Daughter's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 1,578
Groaned at 13 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 1,223 Times in 577 Posts
MacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
A friend of a friend of mine (a man aged 66 years) married a lady some years ago. During the marriage he adopted her two children from a previous relationship. Now, many years later, they are agreeing to a Swiss divorce, and this should not be a problem.

The problem is his earlier own two children have seen their inheritance diluted and are now asking their father to disinherit the two adopted children. My friend thinks even if the two reach maturity, he cannot simply disavow them, and under Swiss law they are entitled to an equal share of his estate.

A very difficult situation, and I am sympathetic to both sets of children.
What a mess!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:16
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 238
Groaned at 40 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 256 Times in 112 Posts
BonBon is considered knowledgeableBonBon is considered knowledgeableBonBon is considered knowledgeable
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Maybe I am wrong but can he not simply write a will and he can give what he wants to who he wants?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank BonBon for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:18
MacGregor's Daughter's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 1,578
Groaned at 13 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 1,223 Times in 577 Posts
MacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
Maybe I am wrong but can he not simply write a will and he can give what he wants to who he wants?
Legally children are entitled to at least a minimum and adopted children are treated equally to natural children.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank MacGregor's Daughter for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:19
tom tulpe's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Horgen
Posts: 1,056
Groaned at 19 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,213 Times in 549 Posts
tom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
A friend of a friend of mine (a man aged 66 years) married a lady some years ago. During the marriage he adopted her two children from a previous relationship. Now, many years later, they are agreeing to a Swiss divorce, and this should not be a problem.

The problem is his earlier own two children have seen their inheritance diluted and are now asking their father to disinherit the two adopted children. My friend thinks even if the two reach maturity, he cannot simply disavow them, and under Swiss law they are entitled to an equal share of his estate.

A very difficult situation, and I am sympathetic to both sets of children.
You can't "disavow" your children (or parents!) under Swiss law, whether they are biological or adopted children. Adoption is a rather complicated process, intended mainly to make sure the adoptive parent(s) know what they are doing.

There are limited cases where an adoption can be annulled (Art. 269 etc. Swiss Civil Code), but these are truly exceptional cases, and in any case, such cases must be brought no later than two years after the adoption.

As for "diluting out inheritance" - IT'S NOT "THEIR" INHERITANCE UNTIL YOUR FRIEND DIES. But few prople like to hear this.
Reply With Quote
The following 16 users would like to thank tom tulpe for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:23
Sbrinz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Suisse ouest
Posts: 1,614
Groaned at 54 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 1,212 Times in 642 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
Maybe I am wrong but can he not simply write a will and he can give what he wants to who he wants?
He is Swiss and his Will would be subject to Swiss law, which is similar to most of Europe's. No he cannot refuse to give part of his wealth to his children. In a normal family, the wife gets 50% and the children share the rest equally. He can give some assets away under a Will, but he cannot favour his children.

I suppose the answer is to give all his wealth now to his first two children, and hope he stays alive long enough, I think it's seven years, before the gift can be contested. He is worth a few million, most of it in property.

.

Last edited by Sbrinz; 26.01.2012 at 15:50. Reason: highlighted in bold: He is Swiss !!
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Sbrinz for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:25
tom tulpe's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Horgen
Posts: 1,056
Groaned at 19 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,213 Times in 549 Posts
tom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
Maybe I am wrong but can he not simply write a will and he can give what he wants to who he wants?
Only if
  • the friend is not a Swiss citizen,
  • is a citizen of a country that allows children to be cut out of the will completely and denies them a claim to a share of the inheritance on equitable ground as well, and
  • chooses that law as the law applicable to his succession in a will (assuming that all his wealth is in Switzerland, not all legal systems offer you that choice - time to sell that bungalow in Spain...).
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank tom tulpe for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:29
tom tulpe's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Horgen
Posts: 1,056
Groaned at 19 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,213 Times in 549 Posts
tom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
I suppose the answer is to give all his wealth now to his first two children, and hope he stays alive long enough, I think it's seven years, before the gift can be contested). He is worth a few million, most of it in property.
So he'll be penniless and at the mercy of his "natural" children (I know about usufruct and life estates, but the capital value will be gone forever, or else the "gift" isn't one and can be contested. Excellent choice...

Note to self: do not make such decisions at a time when getting one back at your soon-to-be-ex-spouse is a major influence.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:35
Merrylegs's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vaud/Valais
Posts: 431
Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 357 Times in 168 Posts
Merrylegs has a reputation beyond reputeMerrylegs has a reputation beyond reputeMerrylegs has a reputation beyond reputeMerrylegs has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

If your friend is British, he can make a Will in which he stipulates that he wishes English law to be applied when administering his Estate. He will be at liberty to do whatever he wishes with his "wordly possessions", including exclusion of certain individuals if he so desires.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:40
Mud's Avatar
Mud Mud is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: La Cote
Posts: 2,303
Groaned at 20 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 4,209 Times in 1,589 Posts
Mud has a reputation beyond reputeMud has a reputation beyond reputeMud has a reputation beyond reputeMud has a reputation beyond reputeMud has a reputation beyond reputeMud has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Sounds like he should have done a better job with his biological children if they are getting uptight about a 'diluted inheritance'-- though, if he's even remotely considering disavowing his adopted children I can see where the other two got their morals.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:42
chandler's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: lausanne
Posts: 79
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 27 Times in 15 Posts
chandler has no particular reputation at present
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Isn't it my decision as to how I manage my assets. So while I am alive, I restructure my assets in such a way that I transfer everything to whoever I want (in this case my 2 children). So eventually, when I die, I have little under my own name and hence doesn't matter how it gets split up.
Is my logic wrong ?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank chandler for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:46
nigelr's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Affoltern am Albis
Posts: 612
Groaned at 52 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 482 Times in 243 Posts
nigelr has an excellent reputationnigelr has an excellent reputationnigelr has an excellent reputationnigelr has an excellent reputation
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
Sounds like he should have done a better job with his biological children if they are getting uptight about a 'diluted inheritance'-- though, if he's even remotely considering disavowing his adopted children I can see where the other two got their morals.
Families, don't you just love 'em?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:48
tom tulpe's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Horgen
Posts: 1,056
Groaned at 19 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,213 Times in 549 Posts
tom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
Isn't it my decision as to how I manage my assets. So while I am alive, I restructure my assets in such a way that I transfer everything to whoever I want (in this case my 2 children). So eventually, when I die, I have little under my own name and hence doesn't matter how it gets split up.
Is my logic wrong ?
Not wrong, just going against a legal tradition dating back to Roman law, according to which certain relatives have a claim to at least a portion of your wealth if you die (unless they validly renounced such right). As such, most legal systems that protect close relatives also protect them against avoidance of these rules.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank tom tulpe for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:48
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 4,870
Groaned at 129 Times in 114 Posts
Thanked 3,191 Times in 1,826 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
I suppose the answer is to give all his wealth now to his first two children, and hope he stays alive long enough, I think it's seven years, before the gift can be contested. He is worth a few million, most of it in property.
It's either 5 or 10, I can't recall, but you're not allowed to give away your stuff less than a certain number of years before you die.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:50
tom tulpe's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Horgen
Posts: 1,056
Groaned at 19 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,213 Times in 549 Posts
tom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond reputetom tulpe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
It's either 5 or 10, I can't recall, but you're not allowed to give away your stuff less than a certain number of years before you die.
You are allowed to do that (not least because you don't know when you're actually going to die), but the donation can be contested after your death (unless those who can contest did approve of the gift, in such way as required by law).
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank tom tulpe for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:51
venice's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: zurich
Posts: 398
Groaned at 10 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 362 Times in 204 Posts
venice has an excellent reputationvenice has an excellent reputationvenice has an excellent reputationvenice has an excellent reputation
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
I suppose the answer is to give all his wealth now to his first two children, and hope he stays alive long enough, I think it's seven years, before the gift can be contested. He is worth a few million, most of it in property.
really a difficult situation, it makes you want to become very selfish and spend all your money enjoying life - and thus ensuring family peace.

apart from legal considerations, what is his actual personal relationship to the adopted children? some second husbands or wives develop real feelings for the new partner's children (and vice versa) and actually want them to be heirs their own fortune when the time comes.

it might also be that he would like to keep up his relationship with them because they are near him and can help him now or in his old age maybe better than his own children.
at the same time he feels he feels some maybe unintentional pressure from his own children... I don't know, as a "compromise kind of person" I'm not really favourable to drastic solutions which might unneccessarily hurt people's feelings and come back with a vengenance (unless they deserve it, of course).
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank venice for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:55
Sbrinz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Suisse ouest
Posts: 1,614
Groaned at 54 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 1,212 Times in 642 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
really a difficult situation, it makes you want to become very selfish and spend all your money enjoying life - and thus ensuring family peace.

apart from legal considerations, what is his actual personal relationship to the adopted children? some second husbands or wives develop real feelings for the new partner's children (and vice versa) and actually want them to be heirs their own fortune when the time comes.

it might also be that he would like to keep up his relationship with them because they are near him and can help him now or in his old age maybe better than his own children.
at the same time he feels he feels some maybe unintentional pressure from his own children... I don't know, as a "compromise kind of person" I'm not really favourable to drastic solutions which might unneccessarily hurt people's feelings and come back with a vengenance (unless they deserve it, of course).
Well if he divorces his second wife she won't get any more when he dies. And I think one quarter of a rich dad's wealth is quite enough!

Maybe you already know, that when you die your debts are also passed along to your inheritors...
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 26.01.2012, 16:05
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 4,870
Groaned at 129 Times in 114 Posts
Thanked 3,191 Times in 1,826 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
Maybe you already know, that when you die your debts are also passed along to your inheritors...
Yes, but you also refuse the inheritance, a good idea if the debts exceed the assets!

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user groans at st2lemans for this post:
  #19  
Old 26.01.2012, 16:11
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 2,397
Groaned at 66 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 4,700 Times in 1,498 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

I can't add anything to the above advice, I've learnt some stuff, but anyone reading this that hasn't yet made a will should do so irrespective of age or relationship status.

Making a will now will make a bunch of stuff clearer to those that are left trying to divide an estate. If kids are involved, one should clearly define who is entitled to what, the state is very good at claiming their chunk if descendants aren't clearly identified in a will. Accountants are cheaper than lawyers if you don't know how to set up your own will.
__________________
Home is where the ILS takes us into land
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 26.01.2012, 16:24
venice's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: zurich
Posts: 398
Groaned at 10 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 362 Times in 204 Posts
venice has an excellent reputationvenice has an excellent reputationvenice has an excellent reputationvenice has an excellent reputation
Re: Reversing an adoption of 2 children

Quote:
View Post
Well if he divorces his second wife she won't get any more when he dies. And I think one quarter of a rich dad's wealth is quite enough!
it certainly would be for me

it can be more than "just" a matter of material assets, though.

I know similar cases in which the new partner has been living with the "adopted" children since they were very small. in this case it is justifiable that they feel deeply betrayed if they have seen in him a substitute father figure.

just saying how it can also be, in your friend's case maybe it's completely different.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
adoption, divorce


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children Rangatiranui Employment 54 27.04.2011 20:36
A 13 Months German Shepherd Needs An Adoption Home Mojito K Pet Trading Post 17 11.12.2010 18:55
Reversing Family Dependant Permit Iggy Permits/visas/government 3 19.10.2010 23:10
Tinking of returning to CH because of my children wayout Family matters/health 3 21.05.2008 20:57


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0