I am getting conflicting reports about whether a child who is currently bilingual can take this option at Rämibühl.

The details:

My daughter is getting ready to take the Gymi Aufnahmeprüfung, she speaks English at home but has never been taught through English, German School in California followed by Swiss local school.

We contacted the school who explained the first time that yes the bilingual program is available to everyone but have been told now that it is only open to children who have neither a) been taught through English or b) have lived in an English speaking environment.

Any information about your experiences or where I can get a definitive answer would be great and by extension if any other school in ZH will prevent an English speaking kid from taking the Bilingual Matura in English.

my daughter is at Literargymnasium Rämibühl, she just passed her admission test (she started in 2nd grade, coming from a german gymnasium). she's now applying for the IB class starting in 3rd grade.

they offer two diplomas at LGR (not MNG, though, that's a scientific kurzzeitgymnasium):
- Zweisprachige Schweizer Matura with a variety of language combinations
- IB (International Baccalaureate)

most kids do only the zweisprachige matura. those who want to do IB do it as an additional diploma, so in the end they have both.

if you mean the "schweizer Matura" I don't understand your question. quite a few kids there are bilingual and haven't even been to german/swiss schools before. they certainly cannot prevent them to obtain a diploma. to it sounds as if your daughter has best chances.

I suggest you contact the director(s). they have been generally very helpful.
you're also welcome to PM me.

before moving I found help from one fellow parent whose kids were also starting at LGR on the yahoo "Families in Zurich Group"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Families-in-Zurich/

also check out their very informative website (only in german)
http://www.lgr.ch/home/

Who 'told' you that your child could not be admitted ?

I guess you can only go back to the school and check that she is eligible, but I can't see why they would 'discriminate' - their testing/admission process should be robust enough to make sure all kids applying have the required grounding in both languages...

I can't believe that it would fall on the side of whether or not the child had been to school in an english-speaking country, or one parent speaks english at home - there are plenty of swiss locals who have done this!

You should move fast...according to their website, there is a cutoff date:

http://www.lgr.ch/schule/anmeldung/

We do have an odd situation as we have lived in California but she went to a German Gymnasium there, was never taught in English but of course we do speak English at home. We never even got to this stage with the school though. It was stated that the bilingual class is small and competitive and so no native speakers are allowed. This was further explained as if you lived in an English speaking country or were taught in English. I am going to go in tomorrow but was looking for some opinions before I do that.

Thanks for the deadline tip, we thought we had it all sorted after talking to them months ago but it seems something has changed.

sorry, I cannot help you at all with MNG, as my daughter is at LGR. I'm pretty sure at LGR they have no problems at all with bilingual children.
I'm sure the best thing is if you go and speak personally.

I'm a bit surprised that the sek hasn't counselled you properly about the deadlines, though.
good luck anyway, I'm sure it will work out well for you and you daughter - I generally find school staff here very supportive.

First, "Rämibühl" is actually a campus with three separate high schools sharing it. Each of these has its own academic program and admissions policies.

MNG offers bilingual instruction leading to a Swiss Matura; LG and RG each offer a concurrent IB/Matura program. The latter leads to an IB diploma and a Matura, but it's significantly more work as the requirements for the two diplomas don't overlap completely (more in some subjects, less in others) and students have to learn everything for both in the same four years.

Which one is your daughter applying to?


Secondly, based on your unusual circumstances I agree that you could try and persuade them to make an exception, but the policy at all three schools as far as I know is "native German speakers only." So while having lived in an English-speaking country for a year or two doesn't necessarily exclude a student, having grown up in an entirely English-speaking home normally would.

It sounds harsh, I know, but this is a single class and they have a lot of material to get through - depending on subject up to 40% more than non-IB students at the same school. There simply isn't time in most subjects to provide the language support needed for non-native speakers. Three or four carefully selected subjects - those with the most overlap therefore the least additional pressure on the curriculum - are taught in English, and the teachers of those subjects are specifically expected to support non-native speakers of English. It can't be done across the board for both languages though, not with the hefty curriculum requirements built into the program already.

Oops... just noticed the thread title. So MNG then. No IB program -> less extra time pressure -> probably a more lenient admissions policy.

And that's indeed what you get. As it says on the "Informationsblatt" on their website: students who have done an exchange year, done part of their schooling in an English environment ("im englischen Sprachraum" it says) or who speak English at home can be admitted to the bilingual program, but only if there are remaining places available.

Thank you very much, I had not found the information section on the website. It is clear now.
It seems strange still that a child who speaks English at home should have to comply with the regular German language expectation and expect no special help in this area, only to be penalised again (excluded) while trying to avail of their English language skills.

I wouldn't view it as a penalty, but simply an acknowledgment that your child is actually overqualified for the level of English instruction this program provides. Its goal is to kick kids' English up a level so they will be capable of attending university in English (something most gymnasium graduates would otherwise really struggle with.)

Your daughter is a native English speaker already. She doesn't need this special 'Vertiefung' and wouldn't benefit from it. It's true that she would probably gain a lot from bilingual education, but in a completely different way for a different set of reasons. A class aimed at students like her needs to be taught in a different way than one aimed at students with the opposite background, so it makes sense for a given school to focus on one group or the other.

I agree but at the same time these kids have the same right to an education.
at LGR I know there are a few kids with a similar background and they get extra classes in "Deutsch für Auslandsschweizer".
LesCA, would it be too late for your daughter to change to LGR rather than MNG? or did you choose that school because she's particularly good in science and maths (not our case)

I would bet anything the same kind of support is available within the MNG, even if not in conjunction with the bilingual program.

The issue is that this particular bilingual program is specifically tailored to students with native German who need better English. Right away this focus determines which subjects should be taught in which language: if you were organizing a program for students with native English but who need better German, you'd make exactly the opposite subject/language pairings. That's just for starters. There are also special activities, field trips, exchange programs, tons of other stuff where it makes a difference.

Providing extra classes and tutoring for language support is a patch, but the fact is every bilingual program at this level has to choose one language that they will expect students to already speak/write at a (near-)native level and one that they are going to work on... and since any program that's carefully planned to be a good fit for one group of students is guaranteed not to be a good fit for the other group, it makes sense for them to restrict entry (at least more or less) to students who fit their chosen profile.

I do agree that those planning the teaching syllabus do need a focus, no question there. Furthermore a one size fits all plan rarely works in these situations.
In our case we are not asking for extra German help (even though it was a struggle we are there now, her first language is German with Swiss German her general spoken language) just the opportunity for instruction in English ideally in a science focused environment.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge in this area do you maybe know of a school that might offer what we are looking for?

To be honest I think the 'space-available' proviso at MNG is going to be your best bet.

All the public schools are oriented toward local kids. If they have a bilingual program at all (and most don't), it's invariably going to be the same sort as MNG: aimed at local kids with strong English, not native English speakers with strong German. There will also be admittance restrictions of one sort or another - for all the same reasons I outlined above and also to keep them from becoming just taxpayer-funded international schools, with all the student and staff transience that would bring.

If you want education geared to the needs of native English speakers, you are only going to find that at an international school. I don't know them well enough to recommend any particular one.

This is the one bit I don't get though:
If she is really a native German speaker then the school will probably be a lot more understanding. However, I don't see in what sense one can say that someone is a native German speaker if she grew up in an English-speaking home in an English-speaking country, and the school will probably take the same view I do, at least at first. I expect you'll have your work cut out to convince them; worth a try though.

So we went to the school and after a little explaining and listening to her and the situation they will likely look favourably on the whole thing. We have finally settled on MNG now all we have to do is get through the exam :(

Thanks to all for your helpful suggestions, it was great to get so many quick responses.

Just to clarify one thing for MathNut, we did live in the US but our daughter went only to a German School (German gov certified) from age 3, hence German friends, sports etc. and her Dad speaks German, weird I know but her German is definitely way stronger than her English.

Cheers to all...

good luck and all the best for your daughter, I'm sure she'll make it - and they will be lucky to have her at MNG!