The Swiss have always had a certain tradition of strictness towards kids. It's what defines our values in this nation. But intolerance? Heck no.

Surely you don't mean that a non-parent whose broken leg is being kicked should shut up and not interfere with the parenting of the "but he is just a kid" mother?

That would be my point: Bad parents also think it's obvious that they are good parents. Hence the lack of understanding when the question arises.

I am not judgmental at all. When I complain about something (for argument's sake: child running up and down in train corridor all the time), I just state a fact: The child is causing an objective annoyance. I trust the competence of the parents to deal with the problem, this is why I go to them and speak up. They are the one I consider best placed to deal with the misbehavior, I am honoring their competence and their authority in the matter by turning to them. However, denying the objective annoyance is not up to the respect I have for them as parents. They put themselves down and disgrace themselves as parents all by themselves, I have no part in that.

As a non-parent, I think the "but you don't have kids" is too easy of a bingo. Yes, it has its place when kids are being tut-tutted for breathing, but far too often it is used to excuse otherwise heinous behavior. The stupid woman whose child was kicking my cast asked me if I had kids, and told me it would be different when I had one. This was after I refused to move and asked for her insurance information to pay for more physiotherapy. Anything a child does :BUT YOU DON'T HAVE KIDS. End of story. In other words, in front of a child all I can do is STFU because I don't have kids and am therefore ignorant of how human beings should act in polite society and have no grounds to say anything in the face of rampant incivility. I personally think the kid who kicked me was old enough to know better, but ten parents will say "oh, you don't have kids, so you don't know what old enough to know better is."

one interesting thing I have learned, btw, is that the only frequency range that the Bose noise-canceling headphones are helpless against on long flights...is the sound of a baby crying. I thought long and hard about bringing a breach of warranty claim against Bose, actually.

of course, the headphones are also useless to combat the smell of the inevitable pensioner or two who can't seem to be bothered to walk to the rest room to pass gas. happens every flight.

Having lived with my kids in two different countries, Switzerland being one of them and neither being my home country I can say, from the bottom of my heart -YES! The Swiss are very intolerant to children. It must be a great country having a dog in though considering the the tolerance the dogs are given. Its a strange world....

I didn't say they can not give opinion or advices. Read me again please.

I said that as parents we have to take others advices even when one has no idea wht he is on about (like Ecb's exemple). Non-parents get to tell us what ever they think with or without reason but we (parents) can't tell them that may e they don't know because they don't have the experience.

Come on! Of course no. Is there anyone in here trully and carefully reading what I said? Really?

I don't even know what to say to that. If my personal safety is in jeopardy I don't know how you can twist the "let me parent" angle.

This isn't about good kids or good parents- i think we all agree here that good kids get the short end of the stick in Switzerland when it comes to stranger control and glares. I see the OP's point, I'm so scared of being that nasty stranger, and if a kid is happy reading its book to mommy or singing a song or whatever, gee, let the kid be creative even if it makes my commute noisy. If a kid is having a tantrum, let the parent handle it since most kids calm down faster without outside interference (oh wait, I can't say that because I don't know, no kids, right?).

What I don't get is the feeling you see the other side of the coin: when we, outsiders, choose to say something, instead of the parents going "hmm, maybe I should think about this", instead our opinion gets discounted because "we don't know what it is like." I've been laughed or even scolded at by parents whose children damaged my clothing, took my glasses off, kicked my cast, knocked books and cell phones out of my hand. They never once said "Billy, don't do that." It was my fault for holding my cell phone where the kid could see it, or my fault for having knees that the kid wanted to rub mud on, my fault for wearing glasses, or my fault for holding the book in front of my face where the kid couldn't see me. Never once could their parenting be lacking in any way because I would know better when I had kids.

So while there is an intolerance problem, people with kids need to realize that in most common areas we too have to adapt and sometimes it gets old listening to little suzy sing at six am, or having to put away our kindle in the tram because some kid is grabbing at it just like it gets old to constantly be tut-tutted just for having a stroller or trying to play a game with your kid in the train. I wish everyone could learn to get along.

It depends... How many episodes of Super Nanny did you watch?

That is a specific question, no need to drama queen. I would have told my child to not do that and apologies. Idiots come in all kind of form parents as well.

What I am talking about is very different. Is having someone telling you how you should do this, care of that, etc. you have busy bodies in the non-parents area too. People who they know better than the parents, who hide behind this exact same outrage of yours.

That is exactly what I am saying. Non-parents who believe to know better don't want to be told they don't have kids and may not know. Because when told, they act offended and how dare he parent can say this.

So I was right at the page number 3: why a non-parent can tell what ever he wants to the parents but th parents can not tell them they don't know be ause they don't have the experience.

We are not all bad parents, you know? What about the others? What about th mean non-parents that believe they can call a parent a non-fit mother or father? How dare? Being parents I already a hard job, no one needs to get this kind of crap from people who hav no idea.

Well I am trully sorry you had those experience, because it isn't acceptable. I would have snap myself being you.

But we are not talking about the same situation. Tis is seeing someone once in a commute, etc. I am talking about people in your environment, life, entourage.

I can assure you that my kids would never disturb someone like that, physically or with noise.

Being parents isn a free ticket to be asocial. Like I said earlier, jerks come in different forms, parents as well.

You didn't have to stoop to calling me a drama queen, but hey, I got my first groan. The problem with idiot parents is they think they are good parents, and idiot parents also say "but you don't have kids so STFU." Because idiot parents get offended when their kid is doing something like falling out of a train and call us out on "not knowing how to parent." We're going in circles, but like I said before, it cuts both ways and it gets really old how this generation of parents thinks they are the first to have popped out kids in all of humankind and they are now here to teach the rest of us how to live by theirs and their kids' examples. There are buttheads who tut tut and moms on cell phones with kids pulling stuff off the shelves in the Coop. Most of us, thankfully, are in the middle.

Did you read what I said? We don't have to argue on what we both agree... I am talking about a different situation here.

Here is my question again.

Truly Nil, it has been answered already. Ah well, you got your 'passion' for tonight.

Yes the question was answered. I was repeating it for making a point.

I am not saying that non-parents don't know what it is to have kids. I am saying that non-parents take the right to tell parents how to educate their kids but don't accept to be told, that maybe, just maybe they don't know what they are talking about.

Jeez.

And NO I am not talking about a kid misbehaving in the tram and the mother doesn't give a damn. I am not talking about those kind of situations!

As a non parent, the only thing i want from parents is to keep their kids quiet. I dont mind if they behave as kids as long as they dont scream and stay away from me. And i dont care how the parents do it.

Yeah, definitely true---however this idea does apply to anyone giving anyone advice on any topic. But seriously? Would you actually like to throw it in someone's face when they are just trying to be helpful? I get tons of advice daily, I disagree with reason with almost 75% of it, and have a very good track record of being right in the end. That being said, I would be quite the @sshole if I told almost everyone I talk to that they have no clue what they're talking about. Sometimes it pays to be the bigger person, smile thank them for their opinion and go about with your life!

But Nil, that mother on the train also thought she is doing a fine job and Nicole, who doesn't understand, should just shut up. Could it be that maybe sometimes non-parents can tell parents what they think about the behaviour of their kids?