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  #41  
Old 23.05.2012, 23:20
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

Here is one link about home schooling. Not the one I saw initially, but that is a start. So it looks like some C/Kanton are more 'liberal' than others- but that the mentioned Court Ruling shows a tightening of the regulations.

Families Ordered to Send Their Children to School

By Willi Villiger
Two Swiss homeschool families wanted to challenge the judgments of subordinate administrative courts that had previously ruled against them and denied them the option of private education for their children. Both families—from the cantons of St. Gallen and Zurich—recently appealed to the Federal Court. This is the highest court in Switzerland. Sadly, the Federal Court also ruled against the families. In the case of the Zurich family, the court even criticized the cantonal legislation as too liberal. The main argument of the critique concerned homeschoolers’ so-called lack of socialization. The court stated that as long as children grow and learn only within the family, the principle of equal opportunities is not guaranteed—yet these opportunities are required by the Swiss Constitution. The court asserted that compulsory schooling requires not only equal education for all, but also the same level of socialization for all students.
This strikes a hard blow to the freedom of education in Switzerland. However, as education is regulated at the cantonal level, we do not yet know what impact the ruling will have among the twenty-six cantons. We expect that some cantons will still retain very liberal homeschool legislation, but cantonal politicians who seek to tighten laws will now be able to easily rely on this ruling by the Federal Court.
The canton of Zurich has particularly sought to restrict homeschooling. Following the Federal Court ruling, the situation in Zurich is worsening. The five homeschool families who remain in Zurich have been given a 20-day period to appeal the Federal Court’s ruling. However, in the meantime, the authorities have asked the families to send their children to school now. In reality, the appeal is only a temporary reprieve; all of the legal options are exhausted. Yet each of the five families are Christians, and they are determined not to send their children to school.
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  #42  
Old 24.05.2012, 10:22
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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Do any of the wise educators/ parents out there on EF know if there is a committee, board, etc that a parent can meet with if they don't find the school's placement of a child appropriate and they have already met with the teacher/director? I think there is a next step but I've never had a clear explanation of this process. I'm not the only parent at our school faced with this challenge and it would be incredibly helpful to know more about the process. Thank you!
This is a well-known phenomena here is the Vaud schools, and one reason why so many have critisied it, leading to the new Vaud school law, LEO that was voted in last year. There is indeed nothing fair, objective, nor transparent in the streaming process. And in some cases I know of personally, this decision making process is down right scandaleous with no checks and balances in the system. For example, one friend of a friend had a daughter that always did well, when it came to the streaming, the rather old school type teacher selected those for VSB, all boys, not one girl. It quickly became apparent to the parents in said class what was going on but they were helpless to fight it. As far as I know, the decision stays within the school district and if the director supports the teacher on this, there is likely not much room for discussion.
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  #43  
Old 24.05.2012, 11:24
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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Just to show how different cantons assess 6th year kids. In canton Fribourg, they have to sit the PPO exam in April (Préparation pour orientation, I think)...
If your current approach fails, have you considered moving canton?
Has anyone done this at 6th grade? How does it work?
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  #44  
Old 25.05.2012, 16:01
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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This is a well-known phenomena here is the Vaud schools, and one reason why so many have critisied it, leading to the new Vaud school law, LEO that was voted in last year. There is indeed nothing fair, objective, nor transparent in the streaming process. And in some cases I know of personally, this decision making process is down right scandaleous with no checks and balances in the system. For example, one friend of a friend had a daughter that always did well, when it came to the streaming, the rather old school type teacher selected those for VSB, all boys, not one girl. It quickly became apparent to the parents in said class what was going on but they were helpless to fight it. As far as I know, the decision stays within the school district and if the director supports the teacher on this, there is likely not much room for discussion.
I just wrote my letter of "desaccord" regarding the school's placement of her. There are 4 or 5 of us contesting in this one class. Lutry seems to have too many strong students.

When the school year is over, I am really tempted to invite the parents for a discussion about this system...
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Old 25.05.2012, 16:16
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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If your current approach fails, have you considered moving canton?
Has anyone done this at 6th grade? How does it work?
From what I've heard, anyone moving to Fribourg in year 6 is exempt from the exam as they wouldn't necessarily have followed the required curriculum. At a guess, they would base the grading on results from the previous canton and assessments up till the end of the year in the new school.
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  #46  
Old 25.05.2012, 21:16
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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If your current approach fails, have you considered moving canton?
Has anyone done this at 6th grade? How does it work?
If I only had this one child, that might not be a bad idea. But since I have a few more and they are settling in nicely here, moving wouldn't be a solution.

My best hope is to get as much information as possible about this system and its players, and to act in the best interests of my family and the community.

I have my meeting with the director and main teacher on Tuesday. Will keep all of you helpful folks posted!
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  #47  
Old 29.05.2012, 11:46
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

Well, I had my meeting with the school director and my daughter's main teacher.

Their main argument is that my daughter needs a year in VSG to master her French and German skills before moving on to VSB. It sounds like they are pretty certain that she ultimately belongs in VSB. The director was in particular impressed with her progress and they see that she is motivated and able.

They say it is finally a judgement call whether it would be better for her to have the year in VSG to learn at a more relaxed pace or to throw her in to VSB where she may possibly be discouraged if it is too hard.

I argued for a direct placement to VSB because my daughter is, in my experience, very clear that she belongs in VSB and she is now getting the grades to prove it. She is a strong and confident person and welcomes challenge. I'm not worried about her much. Also, my son did the VSG to VSB switch and he really says that VSB is the place for him and his sister and feels the transition from one school to another was not easy.

I eventually pulled out a few lines, thanks kodokan, from the "Recommendations for the education of children of foreign language background " which says appropriate allowance should be made for foreign students in school selection decisions.

I went with the advice that the school should feel that I'm not going to be easy to get rid of, but I think I succeeded in remaining polite and cordial. I really do appreciate on some deep and fundamental level that the community is working with us.

Finally, the teachers will meet in the middle of June to review the situation and make their final decision. Beyond that, there is a legal procedure which the director briefly described at the end of our meeting if they stick with the VSG placement and we are not satisfied.

I'm telling you all of this, in part, because I am hoping to learn from any others who have been through this process. And perhaps someone else out there will benefit from my experience. This tracking system is really tough and I am opposed to it for this age group but it's the system I've got to work with.

I hope I don't ultimately have to go through the final legal process. But I will if I have to.
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  #48  
Old 23.06.2012, 04:28
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

Hello,
Is there a way you can put your child in a private school? That would be the end of all your trouble...
Maria
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  #49  
Old 23.06.2012, 13:19
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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They say it is finally a judgement call whether it would be better for her to have the year in VSG to learn at a more relaxed pace or to throw her in to VSB where she may possibly be discouraged if it is too hard.
I don't know your daughter so that might not apply, but failing in Gymnasium (the baccalauréat line in Vaud) as I see it happen is not pretty. Some students just can't cope with the pressure, and I am not sure we the teachers are right to put as much pressure as the parents want us to. Statistics is a bad adviser in my eyes, so unscientific gut feeling estimate here, but the bottom 10% of the gymnasium students (VSB) are suffering and another 10% will make it but won't like it at all with higher risks of conflicts.
If your primary school teacher is like the ones I know, she/he is only trying to avoid years of psychological suffering by building up a "buffer zone". She/He is cautious, the question is whether she/he is overly so.
Remember that the bridges are functioning well if you keep in close contact with teachers/school. Even at the end of Berufsmatura (maturité professionnelle), there are excellent Hochschulen/hautes écoles and normal possibilities to go to university. The Hochschulen are sometimes better than Universities because the level is high and it is made for launching a professional career. In some subjects/professions, what one would usually study in universities in the UK and Northern America can be normally done in Fachhochschulen here. The labeling is different but not necessarily the content. What you also see after Matura/maturité is that some students apply to Hochschulen and not to universities. They could have done exactly the same by staying in Vaud's general line.
The Swiss educational system is far more flexible than other systems. To get it to fit one's profile and wishes is complex because of this multiple back and forth flexibility, not because of lack thereof.
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  #50  
Old 09.12.2015, 09:54
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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From what I've heard, anyone moving to Fribourg in year 6 is exempt from the exam as they wouldn't necessarily have followed the required curriculum. At a guess, they would base the grading on results from the previous canton and assessments up till the end of the year in the new school.
I know this is an old thread, but we were just informed that my 6th grade son - in public school in Fribourg - must take the exam in April. (So I am trying to research). We only arrived in Switzerland in August, and our plan is to stay only this year (returning to the U.S. this coming summer). However, he must sit the exam just in case our plans change. His French is coming along, but of course, the exam will be very difficult for him!

Personally - because this "doesn't really count" for him - I am curious as to how he will do. By now, his teachers know that he is a smart boy, and assuming he can learn the relevant math terms in French by then, he will do just fine on the math portions. Aside from the exam falling on his birthday , I am interested to see how he does. And there is a very slight chance that we will stay, I suppose (we ARE loving it here). Again, I know this thread is a bit old, but I did want to correct/update the perception that recently arrived kids are let off the hook.

However, I am having difficulty finding any appropriate resources (aside from paid tutors) to help prepare him for what might be on the exam (for example, I'd love to know what elements of history & geography we should review). Unfortunately, due to the (fantastic) extra French lessons he receives from Fribourg, he has missed some of the class time that has been dedicated to learning the above subjects. Any guidance to online resources in French or English that may be of help? Thank you!
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  #51  
Old 09.12.2015, 10:25
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

Geography and History are not covered by the entrance exam.

For some sample exams see:
http://www.fr.ch/s2/fr/pub/admissions/examens.htm
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  #52  
Old 09.12.2015, 10:26
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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I know this is an old thread, but we were just informed that my 6th grade son - in public school in Fribourg - must take the exam in April. (So I am trying to research). We only arrived in Switzerland in August, and our plan is to stay only this year (returning to the U.S. this coming summer). However, he must sit the exam just in case our plans change. His French is coming along, but of course, the exam will be very difficult for him!

Personally - because this "doesn't really count" for him - I am curious as to how he will do. By now, his teachers know that he is a smart boy, and assuming he can learn the relevant math terms in French by then, he will do just fine on the math portions. Aside from the exam falling on his birthday , I am interested to see how he does. And there is a very slight chance that we will stay, I suppose (we ARE loving it here). Again, I know this thread is a bit old, but I did want to correct/update the perception that recently arrived kids are let off the hook.

However, I am having difficulty finding any appropriate resources (aside from paid tutors) to help prepare him for what might be on the exam (for example, I'd love to know what elements of history & geography we should review). Unfortunately, due to the (fantastic) extra French lessons he receives from Fribourg, he has missed some of the class time that has been dedicated to learning the above subjects. Any guidance to online resources in French or English that may be of help? Thank you!
You also have to consider if getting through the exam with an exception is a good idea if he then ends up unable to follow the studies due to language difficulties - you're just digging a deeper and deeper hole.

We had the same issue with improving language due to the (german) lessons but then missing actual subject lessons in school.

Better to repeat the year and build language skills and confidence.

In terms of helping, is he actually interested in doing that? My experience is that trying to get them to learn more when they're already learning the language as extra work just leads to strife! But if you want to, why not look at his books and find things yourself - you'll need to understand it to help him anyway.
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Old 09.12.2015, 11:00
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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Geography and History are not covered by the entrance exam.

For some sample exams see:
http://www.fr.ch/s2/fr/pub/admissions/examens.htm
Thanks... but these seem to be for the exam taken at an older age... the PPO, taken during the 6th grade year to place kids in appropriate CO tracks, as described here: "Chez les élèves francophones, elle comporte quatre épreuves : français,
mathématiques, allemand et environnement."
And here:
"• français
• math
• allemand
• connaissance de l’environnement
– histoire
– géographie
– sciences naturelles".

If there are sample exams for the PPO, that would be extremely helpful! (I haven't found them yet but am looking). Thank you.

Last edited by hemmie; 09.12.2015 at 11:17.
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  #54  
Old 09.12.2015, 11:13
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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You also have to consider if getting through the exam with an exception is a good idea if he then ends up unable to follow the studies due to language difficulties - you're just digging a deeper and deeper hole.

We had the same issue with improving language due to the (german) lessons but then missing actual subject lessons in school.

Better to repeat the year and build language skills and confidence.

In terms of helping, is he actually interested in doing that? My experience is that trying to get them to learn more when they're already learning the language as extra work just leads to strife! But if you want to, why not look at his books and find things yourself - you'll need to understand it to help him anyway.
Just to clarify, it is unlikely that we will be able to remain in Switzerland beyond this one year, so I don't think we will be faced with a decision (repeating a year, CO placement, etc.) at all per se. Re: me helping him to study, since he has to take the test anyway, I know he'd like to do as well as he can. Of course I can look at his books myself... but I need to know what to look for (i.e. what is actually covered on the exam). Also, any elements that his peers covered in earlier years - such as WHAT period of history, what elements of geography (rivers, mountains, etc.? cities & landmarks? etc.) and what is meant by "sciences naturelles" in terms of what knowledge is tested. See here (just found this). Re: math and science in particular, he may do very well if he can spend time learning key terms in French... but it would help if we knew what kinds of questions will be asked & what matter will be covered on the PPO.

Anyway... would love any online resources if anyone knows of any. Thank you.
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Old 09.12.2015, 11:34
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

Thanks, you are correct.

For reference, the three levels of the cycle d’orientation which starts after 6 grade in Canton FR:
http://www.fr.ch/osso/fr/pub/12-15_a..._de_classe.htm

As they say it is a first assesment, and they will to reassigment if necesary or appropiate.
http://www.fr.ch/osso/fr/pub/12-15_a..._de_classe.htm

If a Academic career is the goal, at the end of the cycle d’orientation you should be eligble for the maturité school:
https://www.fr.ch/s2/files/pdf49/Tab...re_2011_IC.pdf

My French is not so good, and it does not help that the rules for the German speaking studnts are different then the rules for the french speaking students.
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  #56  
Old 09.12.2015, 12:09
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

Not relevant to you, but perhaps for others. Canton Neuchâtel has changed the system from this year- making 'segregation' at 11/12 much less clear- with setting for some key subjects and not for others. The Jury is still out, but so far, it seems, so good.
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Old 09.12.2015, 12:13
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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Not relevant to you, but perhaps for others. Canton Neuchâtel has changed the system from this year- making 'segregation' at 11/12 much less clear- with setting for some key subjects and not for others. The Jury is still out, but so far, it seems, so good.
Yes, it appears that Fribourg is in the process of changing the system, but it remains in place for this year.
http://www.laliberte.ch/news/un-repo...3#.Vmf-V9-rTNw
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Old 09.12.2015, 12:53
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

I believe (must check) that only Valais and Neuchâtel have put the new system in practice.

BTW when you say 6th grader- do you mean 8th grader in new system (eg about 11 years old).

In Neuchâtel currently 8th graders have mixed classes.
9th have mixed classes but setted for French, German and Science
10th mixed classes but setted in French, Maths, German, Science and English
11th as above- with 4 periods allocated for options which can be either vocational or academic.
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Old 09.12.2015, 12:59
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

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I believe (must check) that only Valais and Neuchâtel have put the new system in practice.

BTW when you say 6th grader- do you mean 8th grader in new system (eg about 11 years old).

In Neuchâtel currently 8th graders have mixed classes.
9th have mixed classes but setted for French, German and Science
10th mixed classes but setted in French, Maths, German, Science and English
11th as above- with 4 periods allocated for options which can be either vocational or academic.
Yes, 6th=8h, 11 years old. I'm not sure what you mean by "mixed classes." (as in kids from all three: prégym, générale, & exigences de base?).
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Old 09.12.2015, 13:01
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Re: Contesting school placement for 6th grader

Mixed classes as in they are no longer 'segregated' into academic and vocationals clearly separate streams- only for certain subjects- unlike Vaud.

Much easier for me to compare to UK system (where I taught for 30+ years and where my kids (now adults) and grand-kids go to school) than the US system I am not familiar with)

Last edited by Odile; 09.12.2015 at 13:51.
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