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  #21  
Old 26.04.2015, 12:46
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Is it correct to say from what you have posted there are in place the following court decisions:
1) He is to pay maintenance?
2) He is to pay child support?
3) You are to remain living in a certain location?

The above sound "normal" to me.

If any of the above are nothing being maintained the other party can petition the court for action - in the case of the first 2 this would go as far as having the money take directly from any salary.

You will get no further unless you visit a lawyer.

Of course I know I need to go to a lawyer. I still have much debt to cover from a 5 year divorce. I posted to get any info/feedback from anyone that has gone through this process so I could prepare before seeing a lawyer.

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Have a look at this Web site: http://unjobs.org/duty_stations/gva

It shows UN jobs and knowledge of a language other than English may not be required.

I remember once working with one of the librarians on a research project. He said he was a German citizen married to a Swiss, had been working there many years but only after his retirement (a year or so later) would he seek naturalisation. So perhaps foreign citizenship is an advantage.
Thank you - this is very helpful (hopefully) I will check it out this week.

Thank you. I might take you up on this.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 26.04.2015 at 14:15. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #22  
Old 26.04.2015, 13:22
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

What would happen legally if she goes on holiday to the UK with the kids & doesn't come back? Wouldn't the boot then be on the other foot?
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  #23  
Old 26.04.2015, 14:20
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

I think, but am not sure, that any parent taking children out of a country without a letter of consent from the other parent can be considered as kidnapping. The OP should look into this, or may cause problems later.

There are lots of stories of one parent taking the child on "holiday" and the other parent has to fight for years to see her/his kid.

Some countries need proof that you are the parent, birth certificates, letters etc. All this is to stop child trafficking. Which is a good thing.

I am still open to the OP to help her with the Permanance in Geneva.
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  #24  
Old 26.04.2015, 15:23
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

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What would happen legally if she goes on holiday to the UK with the kids & doesn't come back? Wouldn't the boot then be on the other foot?
British practice is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...hild-abduction

A child's domicile for purposes of The Hague Convention is (simplifying) where s/he lived for the 6 months prior. Any signatory State is required to send the child back to that State if a proceeding is brought.

US states are not signatories to the Convention, the Federal Government is. Thus it requires state-by-state legislation to effect its provisions. Here is one of the State Dept's advise pages: http://travel.state.gov/content/chil...hague-app.html
By reputation, certain states (Ohio, are you listening) used not to send children back; that's apparently no longer the case: http://www.gottfriedlaw.com/hague-convention/

Many Arab and Muslim countries have not signed the convention, except, Iraq, Kuwait, Oman and maybe a few others. There's a link to the countries here: http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act...display&tid=21

A child can be taken abroad on holiday but if the other parent has not given consent and chooses to complain, an abduction charge could be brought. It all depends on facts.

Occasionally the non-custodial parent is duped into giving consent whereby the child lives for 6 months somewhere else, and acquires domicile there under the Convention.

The above comes from a social worker friend of mine. Who pointed out Web sites that warn European girls about the risks (in this context) of having affairs with citizens of Arab and Muslim countries: remember "Not Without My Daughter"? And she reminded me that ex-wives of Orthodox Jewish women are sometimes held hostage (over money, over custody) in connection with a "get", a religious divorce that would allow them to remarry.

What a mess.
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  #25  
Old 26.04.2015, 18:15
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

It is a mess.

But the childrens' wellbeing should be paramount in all cross border situations. Not only in countries where child abduction etc. are rife.

Whether or not the OP has full custody of her kids or not, i think she may need that letter signed by her ex to take them, even on holiday to the UK.

Also, is she herself not abducting the kids? There are very thin lines about what is right or wrong in situations like this.

Which is why she needs to get her paperwork sorted out and see a lawyer. And, hopefully, come to a mutual decision with her ex about the children and where would be benificial for them to live. Not the animosity between the parents.
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  #26  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:45
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

Thanks Caryl. It is important for people that are/could put themselves in such situations are aware of the consequences.

I am aware that taking the kids out without his/court consent = breach of the Hague Convention (HC) which is why I have not done so. It would be traumatic for the kids to be dragged back & forth. I need to go to a lawyer but I wanted some input from someone/anyone that has been in a similar situation - then I would know what to do/not do.

I cannot sustain myself & the kids here therefore I think it is beneficial for us to leave where I can support them without social support etc.

My ex has 2 separate "families" here in CH. He doesn't pay for his kids with me as he should nor see them as he should. BUT our lives hang in the balance because he knows I can't live decently (why should I have to live on social support?) and that I NEED his consent to leave.

He is busy with his life living it as HE wants & yet knows he has the CONTROL over mine to make me stay. How is this RIGHT/FAIR to me and the kids.
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  #27  
Old 04.05.2015, 13:06
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

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Thanks Caryl. It is important for people that are/could put themselves in such situations are aware of the consequences.

I am aware that taking the kids out without his/court consent = breach of the Hague Convention (HC) which is why I have not done so. It would be traumatic for the kids to be dragged back & forth. I need to go to a lawyer but I wanted some input from someone/anyone that has been in a similar situation - then I would know what to do/not do.

I cannot sustain myself & the kids here therefore I think it is beneficial for us to leave where I can support them without social support etc.

My ex has 2 separate "families" here in CH. He doesn't pay for his kids with me as he should nor see them as he should. BUT our lives hang in the balance because he knows I can't live decently (why should I have to live on social support?) and that I NEED his consent to leave.

He is busy with his life living it as HE wants & yet knows he has the CONTROL over mine to make me stay. How is this RIGHT/FAIR to me and the kids.
Go to the child protection authority in your canton for their free service to make sure you get the payments. From the link in my post (no 5)

"If maintenance is not paid

If your ex-husband or wife neglects their maintenance obligations:
  • The cantons provide a free service to help the person entitled to maintenance to recover the payments and can make advanced payments to tide you over until the amount is paid. In most cantons the child protection authority is responsible for this service.
  • In certain circumstances you can apply to the court for a debt recovery order to have the outstanding contribution taken directly from the salary of your ex-husband or wife and transferred to you.
  • If you are owed maintenance payments you can initiate debt recovery proceedings at the credit agency of the person owing contributions.
You can also initiate criminal proceedings against the person who neglects their maintenance obligations even though they were in a position to pay maintenance."

They'll help you get the payments sorted out and may be able to advise/help you apply to the court to have payments taken directly out of his salary.
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  #28  
Old 25.07.2015, 16:39
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

Hi,
The folks here have come out the other side and may be able to provide useful advice on gaining a relocation order.
http://www.expatstuckparent.org
https://www.facebook.com/ExpatStuckMums

I am much too intimately familiar with your situation, with no hope of a relocation.
Good luck to you.
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  #29  
Old 18.08.2015, 10:31
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

I can't seem to thank anyone...so just to say thank you to all for their contribution & useful ideas.
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  #30  
Old 03.11.2015, 19:48
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of - update

In case anyone is interested, I thought I would post a bit of an update on this...
There are some facebook pages that deal with many questions/answers & some happy endings...

Check out the following facebook groups;

"Expat Stuck Mums" ...although please note that is NOT always just mums.
"Against the misuse of the Hague Convention on international parental child abduction".
"Revise the Hague Convention on Child Abduction Law"


Examples of such situations: http://www.kwsols.ie/blog/child-abdu...land-.424.html
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  #31  
Old 05.12.2015, 22:20
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

help i feel stuck too. in a similar situation. married a swiss, divorced and now can't leave CH for 15years (until kids reach adulthood)!!! contact me personally if any one has any great ideas how to get out of this country.
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  #32  
Old 06.12.2015, 00:23
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

If I understand you right, you are here because your husband is Swiss, and your children are still small, you want to leave, but he does not want you to take the children out of Switzerland. Have I got that straight?

If you and your husband separate or divorce, do you know whether you still be entitled to a permit to stay in Switzerland, and if so, on what basis, and what kind of permit?

Last edited by Ace1; 06.12.2015 at 11:33. Reason: removing name
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  #33  
Old 06.12.2015, 19:11
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

Hi, Firstly, you are not on your own. More common than people realise.

Maybe send a PM to stuck expat mums on facebook - They are trying to help people all over the world in similar situations.

Stay positive no matter what. Feel free to pm anytime - as I too am still trying to extricate myself from CH.
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  #34  
Old 06.12.2015, 19:35
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

May I ask the OP how many years were you living in CH as a couple (i.e. before divorce)?
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  #35  
Old 07.12.2015, 00:16
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

Less than 2 years...Wasn't wife no.1, nor 2.....was 3....but has since had another child with ANOTHER woman (Yes there are women more stupid to believe his cr*p that "he'd changed" after ME, so I cannot be THAT stupid...I can only leave with court permission - I am fully aware of that....now....not whence we married!
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  #36  
Old 07.12.2015, 08:37
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Re: Hague Convention - abuse of

To clarify:
- You are a non-EU?
- You married a Swiss person?
- You had a child?
- As part of the separation/divorce you are prevented from leaving the country with the child? Or prevented from leaving the country?

In the case of the former this is pretty common when the parties are from different countries. Often this leaves one party unhappy at the requirement to remain in a country where they don't want to live. One guy I know had custody of his son - and was required to remain living in Switzerland until son was 14 - only then could he move to another country. Additionally, if you are not the party with custody, then you are usually free to leave.

Typically you can take the child out of the country but you'll need to have a signed (possibly even notarized letter) from the other party.

This is not unusual across many countries - it is not a Switzerland only thing.


**When I mention custody I mean primary caregiver and not parental rights.
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  #37  
Old 08.12.2015, 14:58
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Research into divorce abroad is finally starting to happen
Prof Yvonne McNulty has collected 200 case studies of expat divorce but needs another 50. It's important that the stuck parent's plight is understood so please take part in her study. You will receive a free report on the outcomes.
Follow this link: http://expatresearch.com/studies/expat-divorce

Here is also a questionnaire, it will help to build up an understanding of this issue. It is totally confidential - your details will NOT be shared with anyone. The link is here:
http://goo.gl/forms/qBZkfzXKR4

Support the Going Home Together Campaign 2015. Stop The Hague Convention being used as a weapon against Expat parents who just want to return home with their children after a failed relocation abroad. Read our 6 proposals. Revise The Hague Convention!

A petition to change The Hague is here. If you haven't already, please sign and share. It will be finishing at the end if this year and handed into the Secretariat of The Hague. Thank you so much for your support.
http://goo.gl/6vY8qm


https://www.change.org/p/permanent-bureau-hague-conference-on-private-international-law-support-the-going-home-together-campaign-2015-stop-the-hague-convention-being-used-as-a-weapon-against-expat-mothers-who-just-want-to-return-home-with-their-children-after-a-failed-reloca


This is a link to a 'proposed' contract prior to couples moving abroad - that's not to say that it WILL definitely stand up in a court of law, however, it is a start towards intentions.

http://www.expatstuckparent.org/pre-emigration-contract

So, you are planning to move abroad - What can you do to make sure you are free to return home with your kids?
This is the best we've been able to come up with as yet - it's a like a 'Pre- Nup' but for moving abroad!


Go to a specialist lawyer who will get you both to agree on the 'What if' questions eg What if one parent doesn't like the new country? Will the whole family return? Or if not where will the kids live? What if someone gets ill?
When you have agreed on all the eventualities, this decision will be recorded and lodged at the court. The decision will only be valid for 2 years, but by then you should have an idea whether you like the new country and want to settle down there.



This document should give your family a 'cooling off' period to see whether you like living in the new country or not. Without it it is possible that one parent could be trapped against their will in a foreign country because the children are unable to leave due to being classed as 'habitually resident'. This can happen within just MONTHS of arrival.


Please DON'T take a risk, do it properly and protect your family from the fall out of a divorce abroad, a fall out that often means children LOSING one parent forever. Prevent this tragedy, down load this document FOR FREE and take it to a specialist Hague Convention family lawyer BEFORE leaving your country.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 08.12.2015 at 20:54. Reason: merging consecutive posts
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