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  #21  
Old 09.06.2015, 11:13
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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I know that was sheer madness, and almost impossible, but OH worked 135-140 hrs when a junior doctor in London in 1970- so hours have been cut dramatically since then.
that would mean less than 5 hours sleep per night and he probably lived in the hospital?
I might sign that petition after all..
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  #22  
Old 09.06.2015, 11:43
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

why are the number of hours so low? the standard work week is some 42.5 hours. with overtime, many people easily have over 50 hours a week. if you're going to set a maximum, surely you should allow some headroom.

what happens if the limit is reached? do you just say "no" this person requiring emergency surgery should just be left to die?
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  #23  
Old 09.06.2015, 12:07
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

Generally the doctors don't spend 50hrs in the OR. It's all the admin work that takes them over this normal workweek limit.
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  #24  
Old 09.06.2015, 12:17
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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do you just say "no" this person requiring emergency surgery should just be left to die?
I think nobody is even discussing this. The law simply means that hospitals should have enough staff that they could normally ensure something that remotely resembles free time for doctors, not that a doctor will leave people dying on the roadside saying "i'm late for dinner, sorry..."

Nobody would seriously have a problem if there was an exception, say a natural disaster causing doctors to work longer for a week or two - but if your hospital is in a permanent emergency situation is the job just not bearable.
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  #25  
Old 09.06.2015, 14:13
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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that would mean less than 5 hours sleep per night and he probably lived in the hospital?
I might sign that petition after all..
Yes, he had his own room at the hospital and when doing obstetrics, or Casualty(emergency) just had small snatches of sleep/slumber from time to time. Now THAT was crazy, dangerous even for both patient and doctor- but as EDOT rightly said, thos that survived (the doctors ) did learn very fast and got loads of experience and diagsnotic skills which just cannot be acquired with 50 hrs per week. He qualifed at UCH London in 1969, and that is the way it was, whether you guys believe it or not is irrelevant . He hardly saw his children grow up and it nearly broke us too.. so I can see why young doctors are not so keen.
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  #26  
Old 09.06.2015, 17:20
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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Yes, he had his own room at the hospital and when doing obstetrics, or Casualty(emergency) just had small snatches of sleep/slumber from time to time. Now THAT was crazy, dangerous even for both patient and doctor- but as EDOT rightly said, thos that survived (the doctors ) did learn very fast and got loads of experience and diagsnotic skills which just cannot be acquired with 50 hrs per week. He qualifed at UCH London in 1969, and that is the way it was, whether you guys believe it or not is irrelevant . He hardly saw his children grow up and it nearly broke us too.. so I can see why young doctors are not so keen.
I believe it, but it seems crazy indeed... I do wonder whether it's necessary to have this insane programme who can put so many lives at risk, especially the one of the young doctor....let alone his/her family life. They are overworked even later on... I remember family friends of my parents saying that if the other one wasn't a doctor too she/he couldn't have understood this insanity/passion/pure necessity...So kudos to you, Odile!
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  #27  
Old 09.06.2015, 17:38
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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Yes. Don't forget that you compare a highly paid job to a lowly paid job.
Top managers and politicians work long hours too. Is anybody concerned about their working times?
With all due respect, i think you do not have any clue of what you are taking about...

Assistenzärzte have in average 15 hours a day... lunch break is a sandwich on the go and not time at all for any coffe break, smoke, etc.... they work like animals! and yet they are expcted to treat people like you and me! and you know what is the craziest? in hospitals they do have systems in place to count the average working hours which SHOULD not exceed xx per week... what you don't know is that if by any reason they exceed the monhtly amount of legal working hours the computer based system will count all other extra hours as a"break time"....

And now that you are taking about a "highly paid" job, do you actually have a clue of the average salary of Assistenzärzte? i can assure you it is not even close to what you imagine....

I do not think this is a sustainable system, and by comparing the type of work that a doctor does with that of a taxi driver/politician is either the answer... most young doctors strugle with their private life, after working non-stop during the week leaving home at 5am and coming back at 10pm...

I do think this is not healthly for either doctors or the sociaty, perhaps this petition is not the answer or will not solve anything, but at least is poining out a problems that exists and that should be openly discussed!

Last edited by vatalia; 09.06.2015 at 18:44.
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  #28  
Old 09.06.2015, 17:48
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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I believe it, but it seems crazy indeed... I do wonder whether it's necessary to have this insane programme who can put so many lives at risk, especially the one of the young doctor....let alone his/her family life. They are overworked even later on... I remember family friends of my parents saying that if the other one wasn't a doctor too she/he couldn't have understood this insanity/passion/pure necessity...So kudos to you, Odile!
Ah well, Junior doctors were 'reserved' for other doctors and nurses- I was not flavour of the month when I 'bagged' one- especially as I was a pesk furiner - yes it was hard, especially the first year we were married when i was crippled by a car accident and could not go up or down the stairs of the awful flat we lived in London- in the end I was so desperate I went to share his room in a prefab at the Hospital (Queen Mary's Roehampton then)- a 2'6 bed, small desk, 1 chair and a sink- but at least I had company. And hard when the kids were little, with no family around to support me. But we survived, somehow- and now 45 years later (44 year married) we are still here.
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  #29  
Old 09.06.2015, 18:12
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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Ah well, Junior doctors were 'reserved' for other doctors and nurses- I was not flavour of the month when I 'bagged' one- especially as I was a pesk furiner - yes it was hard, especially the first year we were married when i was crippled by a car accident and could not go up or down the stairs of the awful flat we lived in London- in the end I was so desperate I went to share his room in a prefab at the Hospital (Queen Mary's Roehampton then)- a 2'6 bed, small desk, 1 chair and a sink- but at least I had company. And hard when the kids were little, with no family around to support me. But we survived, somehow- and now 45 years later (44 year married) we are still here.
And may you both enjoy your well deserved time together for as long as possible..
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  #30  
Old 09.06.2015, 18:19
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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With all due respect, i think you do not have any clue of what you are taking about...

Assistenzärzte have in average 15 hours a day... lunch break is a sandwich on the go and not time at all for any coffe break, smoke, etc.... they work like animals! and yet they are expcted to treat people like you and me! and you know what is the craziest? in hospitals they do have a system in place to count the average working hours which SHOULD not exceed 50 per week... what you don't know is that if by any reason they exceed the monhtly amount of legal working hours the computer based system will count all other extra hours as a"break time"....

And now that you are taing about a "highly paid" job, do you actually have a clue of the average salary of Assistenzärzte? i can assure you it is not even close to what you imagine....

I do not think this is a sustainable system, and by comparing the type of work that a doctor does with that of a taxi driver/politician is either the answer... most young doctors strugle with their private life, after working non-stop during the week leaving home at 5am and coming back at 10pm...

I do think this is not healthly for either doctors or the sociaty, perhaps this petition is not the answer or will not solve anything, but at least is poining out a problems that many people think
I was hospitalized in Switzerland for a couple of months last year. The doctors I got to know while I was there (many of them junior doctors) seemed to me to have fairly regular mealtimes. I saw the same crowd of them nearly every day, eating hot food together in the hospital cafeteria. Also saw them having coffee together at least occasionally.

I'm not saying they don't work long hours, but let's not over-egg the pudding.
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  #31  
Old 09.06.2015, 18:49
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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I was hospitalized in Switzerland for a couple of months last year. The doctors I got to know while I was there (many of them junior doctors) seemed to me to have fairly regular mealtimes. I saw the same crowd of them nearly every day, eating hot food together in the hospital cafeteria. Also saw them having coffee together at least occasionally.

I'm not saying they don't work long hours, but let's not over-egg the pudding.
Again... this depends in which type of hospital you were hospitalized, there are different types of and therefore the needs and demands also change...

i do not talk about my "experience" of some days being hospitalized i do face this on a day to day basis and know many young doctors in this situation... your comparison of a doctors responsibility/working hours with any other profession (such as taxi drivers/politicians) does just not make any sense at all!!
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  #32  
Old 09.06.2015, 18:53
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

Private clinics are indeed very different to C/kantonal hospitals.
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  #33  
Old 09.06.2015, 18:54
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

This was a cantonal hospital (KS Graubünden).
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Old 09.06.2015, 18:56
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Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

The 80 hour work week is in fact an improvement in the US. But there is a lot of debate among physicians about the best way to train. Some physicians feel that 80 is too many.

Surgery, historically has been an aggressive field. Docs who were trained to cut half asleep think it's the only way to train new docs. I'm not so sure and neither is everyone.

I don't see where a 50 hour week is a problem.
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  #35  
Old 09.06.2015, 18:58
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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This was a cantonal hospital (KS Graubünden).
a KS does not mean anything... there are different levels also within the KS category and not all KS have the same level!!
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  #36  
Old 09.06.2015, 19:07
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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a KS does not mean anything... there are different levels also within the KS category and not all KS have the same level!!
You're the one generalizing ("no coffee breaks"... "work like animals"...) All I did was point out a counterexample from my personal experience.

So what I'm hearing is that your previous post only applies to certain hospitals, or certain wards of certain hospitals, not all of Switzerland. Great! I'm glad between us we've managed to clarify that.
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  #37  
Old 09.06.2015, 19:19
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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You're the one generalizing ("no coffee breaks"... "work like animals"...) All I did was point out a counterexample from my personal experience.

So what I'm hearing is that your previous post only applies to certain hospitals, or certain wards of certain hospitals, not all of Switzerland. Great! I'm glad between us we've managed to clarify that.
Not sure what type of hospital the one in Neuchâtel is ( there is only one if you don't include the private one) but the doctors there all seemed to have time for coffee and cigarette breaks on the numerous times we were there last year.
Our son worked for a week in the 'staff' kitchen there and they served enough meals for every member of staff according to him so the majority of staff ( doctors, nurses, porters etc) were clearly making time for lunch on a daily basis.

I'm sure the doctors do work long hours here and are under serious pressure but sweeping generalisations are just stupid. It probsbly varies widely from one day to the next and from one department to another with some being more stressful and demanding than others.
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  #38  
Old 09.06.2015, 19:23
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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You're the one generalizing ("no coffee breaks"... "work like animals"...) All I did was point out a counterexample from my personal experience.

So what I'm hearing is that your previous post only applies to certain hospitals, or certain wards of certain hospitals, not all of Switzerland. Great! I'm glad between us we've managed to clarify that.
most young doctors work towards achieving a title eg. surgeons, pedriatrician, etc... to achieve that they'll need to spend aroung 6-7 years as working practice before taking up the exam... the amount of years will depend on the type of specialization they want to get. having said that the MUST work eg. 2 years in a A hospital, 3 years in a B hospital, etc.... so at some point all of the young doctors will have to work in one of those demanding hospitals, which are highly competitive and where they actually do not have any option but to work like animals...
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Old 09.06.2015, 19:27
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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most young doctors work towards achieving a title eg. surgeons, pedriatrician, etc... to achieve that they'll need to spend aroung 6-7 years as working practice before taking up the exam... the amount of years will depend on the type of specialization they want to get. having said that the MUST work eg. 2 years in a A hospital, 3 years in a B hospital, etc.... so at some point all of the young doctors will have to work in one of those demanding hospitals, which are highly competitive and where they actually do not have any option but to work like animals...
Out if interest could you give us some examples of the 'demanding' hospitals in Switzerland since you seem to have experience of them.
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  #40  
Old 09.06.2015, 19:37
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Re: Hospital Doctors: very long working hours

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Out if interest could you give us some examples of the 'demanding' hospitals in Switzerland since you seem to have experience of them.
you might also google it yourself... but just to mention some: Universitätsspital Basel, Inselspital Bern, USZ...


http://www.bag.admin.ch/hospital/ind...%3D%3D&lang=de

Last edited by vatalia; 09.06.2015 at 20:25.
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