Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07.07.2015, 10:52
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Dubai
Posts: 5
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
arwadelovely has no particular reputation at present
passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Hi, I needed some advice and guidance on my son's legal rights and entitlements in accordance with the new family law. My ex.partner and I had a child together, the child was recognized at the Swiss consulate in Dubai and received the Swiss nationality. My ex.partner and I drafted a family agreement which gave me the full custody of the child and spelled out the visitation schedule. The custody agreement was done at the local authorities in Dubai, I translated it and sent to the Swiss consulate requesting they change their records to reflect that I have the full custody and legal guardianship of the child but didn't get any cooperation from them. I am not Swiss, Jordanian, I felt like I was dismissed based on the fact that I am Arab.The last officer I spoke to was very rude and dismissive. The father has been trying to get my son's passport as a prelude for taking my son out of the country without my permission. The father got a court junction from the local Islamic courts in Dubai to obtain the passport. I wrote to the Swiss Ambassador this morning, but I am not hopeful about getting any responses. I've been searching the net trying to find answers on how the new law treats the passport situation, does the new Swiss family law give the custody of the passport to the parent that has the custody of the child? where does my son's rights stand as a child of a binational unmarried separated couple?
Appreciate your input and thoughts!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07.07.2015, 11:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: la cote
Posts: 2,777
Groaned at 15 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 2,154 Times in 1,220 Posts
runningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

All I know is that when one has to request or renew a swiss passport for a child through the normal channels here, one has to answer questions as to the status of the child vis-a-vis the requesting parent. I recall that it had to do with divorced or separated parents and who has the legal authority over the child. I never had to answer 'yes' to that question, so I assume it triggers some other questions or paperwork, like submitting papers on legal authority. I would guess that if the requesting swiss parent does not have legal authority over the child, he/she may not have the right to request the passport, but this is just guessing. You will probably have to contact a swiss family law practioner to inquire and clarify.

If you have 100% parental authority, not sure why an islamic court would give him the right to get a swiss passport for his child he has no rights to. But given the above, this may be what the swiss authorities need to issue a passport to him.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07.07.2015, 11:15
Island Monkey's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wallis
Posts: 3,379
Groaned at 62 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,965 Times in 1,469 Posts
Island Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

I'm not sure what this has to do with the Swiss. As a Swiss citizen your son is entitled to a Swiss passport. That doesn't mean his father can take hime away. You are in Dubai, you have a legal Dubai custody agreement, so I would think seeking legal help in Dubai to stop your son being taken out of the country would be the way to go.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07.07.2015, 11:17
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Dubai
Posts: 5
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
arwadelovely has no particular reputation at present
Thanks runningdeer for your response. we reside in Dubai, not Switzerland, and the family agreement we drafted and signed at the local courts in Dubai stated that I have full custody of my son. it didn't go into the details of parental authority. My ex.partner doesn't want to get the Swiss authorities involved bcoz he is trying to use the local system in Dubai that is bias to women. I don't have the local nationality in Dubai, so its strange to have an alien law apply to me and my son. When the child was registered at the Swiss consulate back in 2008, the law requiring an agreement in place between unmarried couple wasn't in place so the official just took "his word" that we are both responsible for the child. Since the divorce was finalized amicably and the custody agreement was put in place, I sent it to the Swiss consulate requesting a change of legal status for the child but my request wasn't acknowledged with any valid reason. I was trying to find an answer to the question of who gets the responsibility of holding the child's passport when an unmarried couple separate and the mother has full custody, though not Swiss? I couldn't find anything on the net and turned to this forum to seek some guidance and advice.

correction,the local system in Dubai is bias to men not women.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 07.07.2015 at 19:03. Reason: merging consecutive replies
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07.07.2015, 11:38
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 5,028
Groaned at 40 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 7,070 Times in 3,215 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Quote:
View Post
Since the divorce was finalized amicably and the custody agreement was put in place, I sent it to the Swiss consulate requesting a change of legal status for the child but my request wasn't acknowledged with any valid reason.
I may be wrong on this but: That's because the child's "status" (who has the legal guardianship) is not registered anywhere at embassy or in Switzerland. Never heard about that.

But you may try to contact the KESB (Kinder und Erwachsenenschutzbehörde / Child and Adult Protection Office) in the Canton of your child's Heimatort (Town of citizenship).
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07.07.2015, 12:23
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Dubai
Posts: 5
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
arwadelovely has no particular reputation at present
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Thanks! that's a good point! I've been trying to register the custody agreement at the local embassy but with no success. the local officer at the Embassy here has been quite unhelpful, dismissing the document without any legal basis.
In addition, the local authorities in Dubai do not prevent the father, though he doesn't have custody, from taking the passport, on the contrary, the local Emirati law give the father that right. But none of us is Emirati, both my son and his father are Swiss, and I am Jordanian. I will need to take legal action and request applying the Swiss law, but I am not sure what the Swiss law says about the child 's passport, any feedback or thoughts on this?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07.07.2015, 13:05
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 5,028
Groaned at 40 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 7,070 Times in 3,215 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Quote:
View Post
Thanks! that's a good point! I've been trying to register the custody agreement at the local embassy but with no success. the local officer at the Embassy here has been quite unhelpful, dismissing the document without any legal basis.
That's is from your point of view. From his point of view there is no legal basis or any Swiss law to process the documents in the first place. It is like I try to register the name of my car at the car registration place.

Quote:
View Post
In addition, the local authorities in Dubai do not prevent the father, though he doesn't have custody, from taking the passport, on the contrary, the local Emirati law give the father that right. But none of us is Emirati, both my son and his father are Swiss, and I am Jordanian. I will need to take legal action and request applying the Swiss law, but I am not sure what the Swiss law says about the child 's passport, any feedback or thoughts on this?
The Swiss law says the every Swiss citizen has the right to get a passport.
The relevant law is here: https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...786/index.html
(Sorry German, Italian, or French only)
Relevant in your case is Art. 11
Quote:
1 Sind beide Eltern Inhaber der elterlichen Sorge, so genügt die Unterschrift einer sorgeberechtigten Person.
2 Kann die Zustimmung des anderen Elternteils aus den Umständen nicht ohne weiteres vermutet werden, so ist sie ebenfalls einzuholen.
1 Have both parents custody (which is normal when married) then one parents signature is enough.

2 Is it assumed the other parent may object, or not both parents have custody (not married, divorced or separated) then the other parents signature is needed or proof of sole custody over child.

In the worst case: Although Dubai is not, Switzerland is a member of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_...hild_Abduction
They will not automatically rule in the favor of the Swiss parent.
(Notable is the Case Ruben )
__________________
Dunkel war’s, der Mond schien helle, schneebedeckt die grüne Flur, als ein Wagen blitzesschnelle, langsam um die Ecke fuhr.
Drinnen saßen stehend Leute, schweigend ins Gespräch vertieft, als ein totgeschoss’ner Hase auf der Sandbank Schlittschuh lief.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 07.07.2015, 13:20
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 13,478
Groaned at 169 Times in 134 Posts
Thanked 9,607 Times in 5,489 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Quote:
View Post
I don't have the local nationality in Dubai, so its strange to have an alien law apply to me and my son.
Why shouldn't an "alien" law apply to you? You live in Dubai and Emirati laws apply to everyone who lives there whether they're a national of that country or not. And you're effectively asking what "alien" Swiss law could help you. Well, the answer is none, because it wouldn't apply in the UEA.

Who is entitled to hold your child's passport is again a matter for Emirati law, not Swiss. The only possible recourse, just in case he tries to bring your child back to Switzerland, is to petition the Swiss court here to recognise your full custody rights as granted by Dubai. Then, possibly, if he brings the child here the authorities would have grounds for arresting him and returning the child to you. However, if you're that worried about it happening then the most immediate action you can take is to refuse to let him see the child unsupervised. If you are always with him he can't really remove him can he? Or, of course, move back to Jordan, taking him with you.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 07.07.2015, 13:43
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 5,028
Groaned at 40 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 7,070 Times in 3,215 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

See also:
https://www.eda.admin.ch/countries/u...documents.html

https://www.eda.admin.ch/countries/u...ments/new.html
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07.07.2015, 13:58
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Zürich
Posts: 352
Groaned at 5 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 214 Times in 126 Posts
transeuropeancheese has made some interesting contributions
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Quote:
View Post
Why shouldn't an "alien" law apply to you? You live in Dubai and Emirati laws apply to everyone who lives there whether they're a national of that country or not. And you're effectively asking what "alien" Swiss law could help you. Well, the answer is none, because it wouldn't apply in the UEA.

Sorry guys, but the message should be that this woman needs to consult a lawyer ASAP who is specialised in international family law.

It is NOT as straightforward as saying that the local law applies. she needs a specialist.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank transeuropeancheese for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 07.07.2015, 15:17
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 13,478
Groaned at 169 Times in 134 Posts
Thanked 9,607 Times in 5,489 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

What is a specialist going to be able to do at this point?

The OP needs to go personally to the Swiss embassy taking both her child's Swiss birth registration and the court document giving her full custody. She could then ask that they put on their records that she absolutely refuses to give consent for her child to be issued with a passport. I'm thinking the ex may turn up with a fake letter/documents showing she's given her permission. If she can scupper that, then he can't get a passport for the child. Also provide them with her/her solicitor's details so they can contact her if they have any questions/doubts about any paperwork put forward in the future.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07.07.2015, 15:36
Today only's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,706
Groaned at 482 Times in 292 Posts
Thanked 3,929 Times in 1,961 Posts
Today only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Get out of Dubai or ask for protection from Swiss Embassy for a Swiss citizen. Say if they don't assist and provide protection you hold them fully responsible for any consequences.

Be polite, but firm, hold your ground, the Swiss will yield i think as the risk is high the child will be abducted and this is not good publicity.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Today only for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 07.07.2015, 19:02
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Dubai
Posts: 5
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
arwadelovely has no particular reputation at present
Thanks transeuropeancheese! where can I find a list of specialists to contact for my issue?

Quote:
View Post
Get out of Dubai or ask for protection from Swiss Embassy for a Swiss citizen. Say if they don't assist and provide protection you hold them fully responsible for any consequences.

Be polite, but firm, hold your ground, the Swiss will yield i think as the risk is high the child will be abducted and this is not good publicity.
I am trying! I am not getting any help or support from the local embassy! its shameful how the resident officer considered this whole issue an "internal family affair"!!
After the call with him, I was thinking of writing to some of the local swiss media on this! its ridiculous how the Embassy isn't doing anything to help my son!

Last edited by 3Wishes; 07.07.2015 at 19:59. Reason: merging consecutive replies
Reply With Quote
This user groans at arwadelovely for this post:
  #14  
Old 07.07.2015, 22:05
roegner's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,023
Groaned at 87 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 3,043 Times in 1,559 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Just to defend the embassy (and no I am not Swiss, just worked in a similar environment): was it clear to them that your child is Swiss? And did you talk to a local employee or a Swiss employee of the embassy/CG? Not that it is good but sometimes local people do have less understanding (even if they should!!).
Do go again, bring your documents and ask to speak to the Consul at the embassy / consulate general

dai.vertretung@eda.admin.ch

adh.vertretung@eda.admin.ch
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07.07.2015, 22:39
cannut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 6,445
Groaned at 175 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 5,514 Times in 3,042 Posts
cannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Quote:
View Post
Thanks transeuropeancheese! where can I find a list of specialists to contact for my issue?



I am trying! I am not getting any help or support from the local embassy! its shameful how the resident officer considered this whole issue an "internal family affair"!!
After the call with him, I was thinking of writing to some of the local swiss media on this! its ridiculous how the Embassy isn't doing anything to help my son!

Herehttp://www.blick.ch/news/
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08.07.2015, 09:32
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Dubai
Posts: 5
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
arwadelovely has no particular reputation at present
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Quote:
View Post
Just to defend the embassy (and no I am not Swiss, just worked in a similar environment): was it clear to them that your child is Swiss? And did you talk to a local employee or a Swiss employee of the embassy/CG? Not that it is good but sometimes local people do have less understanding (even if they should!!).
Do go again, bring your documents and ask to speak to the Consul at the embassy / consulate general

dai.vertretung@eda.admin.ch

adh.vertretung@eda.admin.ch
Hi, yes, it was clear to them that my son is Swiss. I sent them a copy of his passport. I've been in touch with Dai Vertretung and her boss/more senior colleague Urs Siegwart but haven't gotten any helpful input or response from either one. Siegwart has even stated to me in his telephone call yesterday that i "had too many parental rights!" what is that???!!!!!
I think that due to the fact that I am not Swiss, there is little interest in intervening to help my son!
I am going to go through the list of international family specialists that transeuropeancheese provided (thanks for that ) and approach media outlets in Switzerland. I think the Embassy is going to need a push to do the right thing! any suggestions for newspapers to approach?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08.07.2015, 10:15
roegner's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,023
Groaned at 87 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 3,043 Times in 1,559 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

I´d be reluctant to post names here and certain accusations?
Personally I am not sure if going to the newspaper will do any good, but that is your decision
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 08.07.2015, 11:45
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 5,028
Groaned at 40 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 7,070 Times in 3,215 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Quote:
View Post
I have the full custody and legal guardianship of the child
[...]
Appreciate your input and thoughts!
Damm it, some times you do not see the most simple solution.

You request the Swiss passport for your son. Done.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 08.07.2015, 19:52
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,073
Groaned at 924 Times in 720 Posts
Thanked 19,593 Times in 9,431 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

Quote:
View Post
I've been trying to register the custody agreement at the local embassy but with no success. the local officer at the Embassy here has been quite unhelpful, dismissing the document without any legal basis.
Then, perhaps, from the Swiss point of view, it does have no legal basis.

In which case, they will protect first and foremost the rights of their own citizens, as one would expect.

Again, as has been mentioned, you need a lawyer specialized in international law.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08.07.2015, 20:28
Longbyt's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,306
Groaned at 55 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 10,912 Times in 4,089 Posts
Longbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: passport issue child of binational unmarried couple

This link gives information regarding Swiss Rulings on Parental Custody (in English).

Recently the Swiss have changed their laws concerning custody.

"Can sole custody still be granted?

Sole custody will only be granted to a father or mother in special cases. The primary concern is the well-being of the child. Where the child's interests demand special protection, the court may grant just one parent custody."

There are also links to other relevant points on the same site.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Longbyt for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Double surname issue [for baby, unmarried couple] Lou2010 Family matters/health 31 21.01.2013 09:45
Unmarried Couple with Child from Previous Marriage potential issues? Dotty Daily life 0 29.06.2010 18:40
custody of a child of unmarried parents rachel oconnor Family matters/health 7 13.06.2008 08:59
Visas / Unmarried couple with child Leese Permits/visas/government 24 30.08.2007 14:01
Childrens Surnames / Unmarried couple telandy Family matters/health 0 07.12.2006 17:50


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0