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Old 19.08.2015, 12:40
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

From:
http://www.who.int/uv/faq/whatisuv/en/index3.html

"Altitude
With increasing altitude less atmosphere is available to absorb UV radiation. With every 1000 m in altitude, UV levels increase by approximately 10 per cent."

More UVB exposure on skin = more Vitamin D.

From:
Increase in solar UV radiation with altitude.
Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology B: Biology
Volume 39, Pages 130–134
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  #22  
Old 19.08.2015, 12:40
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

I should add to my milk discussion, that anyone can look at the cows in the fields in CH and conclude that the milk is generally much healthier here and humanely obtained than most milk in the US.
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  #23  
Old 19.08.2015, 12:46
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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From:
http://www.who.int/uv/faq/whatisuv/en/index3.html

"Altitude
With increasing altitude less atmosphere is available to absorb UV radiation. With every 1000 m in altitude, UV levels increase by approximately 10 per cent."

More UVB exposure on skin = more Vitamin D.

From:
Increase in solar UV radiation with altitude.
Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology B: Biology
Volume 39, Pages 130–134
Thanks. This is really interesting and helpful. Generally, CH nutritionists and doctors say "stock up on sun in Summer (without getting burnt) because you'll need the stored D to draw from with no D from the sun in winter".

It'd be really interesting to know if it's been verified in reality, rather than just theory, of whether people low in D can go up during winter to increase their levels naturally.

I would think this would be important to health challenged people in winter in CH.
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  #24  
Old 19.08.2015, 13:02
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

Good information here:

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/abou...ght-and-cancer
Quote:
How do we get vitamin D
We get most of the vitamin D we need from a reaction to sunlight on our skin. But we can also get some from what we eat.

Foods that contain vitamin D include

Oily fish such as salmon, tuna and mackerel
Cod liver oil
The following foods contain small amounts of vitamin D

Egg yolk
Beef
Some breakfast cereals (the ingredients label should say how much vitamin D there is)
Margarine
Butter

Through a combination of the food we eat and some exposure to the sun we can get the vitamin D we need. We don't need it every day because our bodies can store it for use in the future. We build up a normal level of vitamin D during the summer. So, as well as having vitamin D in our diets, this is usually enough for winter months when there is less sunlight.
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Old 19.08.2015, 13:09
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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I've taken up his childhood habit of taking cod liver oil supplements.
Do you worry about too much Vitamin A over time?

(Stored and very slow to get rid of)

Do you periodically get your levels of A & D tested and then supplement based on that?

Since you are female, you might want to look at studies that show that long term use of cold liver oil increases osteoporsis and hip fractures.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11754708
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18033763

I just looking into the background behind cod liver vs fish oil.

Generally the body is complex chemistry that we don't really understand. So calcium / magnesium / A / D are all inter-related. If we take too much of one element for a long period over time, it can throw off other elements. This can be slow, subtle and invisible and not show up until a distant health problem down the road.

Generally, I am open to short term use of supplements for a specific therapeutic reason if important enough but wary of long term ongoing general use if basically healthy since we don't really know how all the in the interactions are behaving.

Hence my emphasis on getting it naturally from the sun, since that has been proven over millions of years and is in line with how our body is designed.
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Old 19.08.2015, 13:14
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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Hence my emphasis on getting it naturally from the sun, since that has been proven over millions of years and is in line with how our body is designed.
I get the previous parts but question this one - unless you walk around naked almost all year and spend little time indoors, you are a long way from our evolutionary past.
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Old 19.08.2015, 13:33
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

Just to followup on my last post,

I am curious about how to maximize getting it naturally from the sun because I believe we've evolved to get it naturally. We use to work outdoors much more and so now we have less reserves in winter. My gut also suspects there is all kinds of other factors and chemistry we don't know about that our body gets from the sun rather than from a bottle of isolated chemicals man has created like D3. So I am curious about how to get the natural balance back in a practical way that fits with 21st century life (Aren't we all .... much easier said than done.).

I'm not a huge fan of making the sun an enemy .... within reason. I do think we need moderation and have to be careful in the sun, especially in places like Australia. However, the human animal has been living in the sun for millions of years without packets of sunblock or sunglasses. In fact, we're designed to.

Generally I am not a fan of supplementing if you don't absolutely need it for an important short-term therapeutic reason and I'm more a fan of figuring out how to do things to restore the right balance naturally. I think it is often arrogant to think we know enough to just add a specific chemical. There are so many co-factors we haven't discovered and a complex balance of chemicals, that just adding one element we've discovered can just throw everything off.

A lot of it is mental. It makes us intellectually feel like we're doing something good for our health if we pop a pill, rather than it actually being what is good for our health or doing the hard stuff good for our health.

In this thread, I'm asking about sun in CH and vitamin D for some specific health challenges.
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Old 19.08.2015, 13:47
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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I get the previous parts but question this one - unless you walk around naked almost all year and spend little time indoors, you are a long way from our evolutionary past.
Yes, this is generally a huge challenge we all have with all aspects about our health.

It seems we're all reaching for this sweet spot where we avoid the health challenges of the past, avoid the health challenges specific to industrialized countries and work with what our evolution demands.

The good news specific to Vitamin D and sun is that we only need somewhere between 10-30 minutes a day, to get what we need for that particular day. In fact, the body will stop producing D after we have enough so that we don't have toxicity.

So my question is, since we're indoors more and live in a oft cloudy country (though not this summer), hence do not store as much during Summer, live above a certain latitude with no D during winter .... how can we best maximize our stores naturally while in CH?

.... of course, since CH is the most expensive place in the world and it is often almost cheaper to leave CH than vacation in CH, there is always the option of simply leaving and going south for winter, as well.
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  #29  
Old 19.08.2015, 14:04
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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Yes, this is generally a huge challenge we all have with all aspects about our health.
I think you need to speak for yourself here.

I don't face any "Huge challenge". In fact I find it childishly simple to eat fruit and vegetables everyday, have oily fish and eggs at least once a week and take some exercise.

What I can't understand is why people are feeling they need to make this so difficult and complicated?
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Old 19.08.2015, 14:24
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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I think you need to speak for yourself here.

I don't face any "Huge challenge". In fact I find it childishly simple to eat fruit and vegetables everyday, have oily fish and eggs at least once a week and take some exercise.

What I can't understand is why people are feeling they need to make this so difficult and complicated?
When you are hit with a life threatening illness or life long serious debilitation and you have things you still want to give and enjoy in the world, then you are motivated to figure out how you can recover good health and keep it on track.

There are many people with low D in CH that contributed to health problems, whether or not they realize this was a factor.

I'm not the only one with this challenge.
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  #31  
Old 19.08.2015, 14:32
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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When you are hit with a life threatening illness or life long serious debilitation and you have things you still want to give and enjoy in the world, then you are motivated to figure out how you can recover good health and keep it on track.

There are many people with low D in CH that contributed to health problems, whether or not they realize this was a factor.

I'm not the only one with this challenge.
You did write, "We all..."

Perhaps it would have been clearer to write "Those with a life threatening illness or life long serious debilitation..."

That is clearly not the norm.

There's also a lot of evidence now that at least some of the long-term illnesses people face are due to bad lifestyle and bad nutrition anyway.
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Old 19.08.2015, 14:48
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

Talking about cod liver, I was wondering about fish.

Normally when we buy a fish, the fish has been gutted and all the fiddly bits including the liver removed (presumably thrown away?).

Isn't this done because these are the bits that go bad first,so if they're are not removed while the fish is fresh, they can spoil the fish.

However, when it comes to small fish like sardines, we normally eat them whole. You might say the liver and guts are smaller so less poison there, but then you generally eat lots of sardines while you're at it, so don't the totals add up?

Sometimes when you buy fish fresh from the fisherman, you get a complete fish and have to gut them yourself. i alwas felt bits like the liver and heart actually looked sort of yummy, only never did try preparing them as you never know.

Can anybody who know more about nutrition fill me in on the details. Is it safe (even beneficial?) to eat the liver and heart of a freshly caught dorade for example?
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  #33  
Old 19.08.2015, 15:10
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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At 3000m the UV-B is 60% more intense than at sea level.

So you could get the same UV-B exposure in 37.5% less time or with 37.5% less skin exposure, or a combination of those.
You raise an interesting point.

Sounds like even if your body can make D in winter in CH mountains, there is a tradeoff to exposing yourself to more harmful stuff also. However, if it's just for 10-20 minutes a day, the trade-off seems manageable ... correct me if I'm wrong.

This makes me wonder if skin cancer is statistically more prevalent in CH among people who spend most of their time in the mountains. Probably statistics comparing skin cancer in CH compared to flatter neighboring countries would show this off.

The Swiss are so great at measuring things and creating instruments to measure things, I'm sure somewhere in the govt or universities know the answer.

It's my impression that in reality this isn't the case .... I personally haven't heard the Swiss talking lots and lots about skin cancer from mountain sun (compared to Australian's talking about sun concerns) .... however, I could be very wrong about this.

I suppose droves of people going "up the mountains in winter" (or even in Summer) or the entire population having the ability to "pop up for the day" whenever they choose is a historically new phenomena in CH, so perhaps even the Swiss don't have centuries of experience (and statistics) of lots and lots of people spending time outdoors in the mountains, especially during winter. Most traditions revolve around coming down from the mountains for winter.

It's my understanding that most Swiss thought going up the mountains or sending lots of anything other than cows up the mountains either Summer or Winter was crazy until the victorians got excited and showed them they could make lots of money from it.
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  #34  
Old 19.08.2015, 15:18
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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You raise an interesting point.

Sounds like even if your body can make D in winter in CH mountains, there is a tradeoff to exposing yourself to more harmful stuff also. However, if it's just for 10-20 minutes a day, the trade-off seems manageable ... correct me if I'm wrong.

This makes me wonder if skin cancer is statistically more prevalent in CH among people who spend most of their time in the mountains. Probably statistics comparing skin cancer in CH compared to flatter neighboring countries would show this off.

The Swiss are so great at measuring things and creating instruments to measure things, I'm sure somewhere in the govt or universities know the answer.

It's my impression that in reality this isn't the case .... I personally haven't heard the Swiss talking lots and lots about skin cancer from mountain sun (compared to Australian's talking about sun concerns) .... however, I could be very wrong about this.

I suppose droves of people going "up the mountains in winter" (or even in Summer) or the entire population having the ability to "pop up for the day" whenever they choose is a historically new phenomena in CH, so perhaps even the Swiss don't have centuries of experience (and statistics) of lots and lots of people spending time outdoors in the mountains, especially during winter. Most traditions revolve around coming down from the mountains for winter.

It's my understanding that most Swiss thought going up the mountains or sending lots of anything other than cows up the mountains either Summer or Winter was crazy until the victorians got excited and showed them they could make lots of money from it.
The atmosphere absorbs a lot of UV, so as you go higher, the intensity of UV actually rises faster than the intensity of visisble light. So a certain level of precaution is advisable.

I don't know of any statistics of cancer incidence, but this would be difficult to separate out on the basis of causality anyway as there are other things in the mountains that are contributory to cancer, for example granite, but also things that have the opposite efect, for exmaple less pollution and more wholesome food.

It is more difficult to sepaarte out these days with people having been moving around and inter marrying for several generations, but period reports from travellers say that in old times mountain people were more swarthy than their flatland cousins. 19th Century ethnologists even spoke of there existing an Alpine subrace of people who were darker and shorter but more muscular. So evolution has tended to favour darker skin among those exposed to high doses of UV.
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Old 19.08.2015, 15:38
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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Talking about cod liver, I was wondering about fish.
Sometimes when you buy fish fresh from the fisherman, you get a complete fish and have to gut them yourself. i alwas felt bits like the liver and heart actually looked sort of yummy, only never did try preparing them as you never know.
I also want to learn about the practicalities of including more organ meat in diet. It seems the paleo people and people with health problems such as MS have made gains returning to including organ meat. Don't know much about this but they are starting to think that since oils are so important to the human brains, perhaps when we moved to the coast and started eating fish (and also their organs?) in larger amounts this contributed to a huge evolutionary leap in brain size.
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Old 19.08.2015, 15:52
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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19th Century ethnologists even spoke of there existing an Alpine subrace of people who were darker and shorter but more muscular. So evolution has tended to favour darker skin among those exposed to high doses of UV.
Thanks for this. So the mountain people's bodies had to protect more against damage than grab Vitamin D (as opposed to the example of more fair in lower Scandinavia).

This is why I like some of the things said by Weston A. Price. He says we don't know enough to think we can intellectually theorize about what individual elements to add and should instead study indigenous populations who lived healthy over centuries.
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Old 19.08.2015, 17:11
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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I also want to learn about the practicalities of including more organ meat in diet. It seems the paleo people and people with health problems such as MS have made gains returning to including organ meat. Don't know much about this but they are starting to think that since oils are so important to the human brains, perhaps when we moved to the coast and started eating fish (and also their organs?) in larger amounts this contributed to a huge evolutionary leap in brain size.
Some scientists now believe it's consumption of carbohydrates in large quantities that caused this increase in brain size.

Read the abstract here
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Old 19.08.2015, 20:13
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

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Do you worry about too much Vitamin A over time?

(Stored and very slow to get rid of)

Do you periodically get your levels of A & D tested and then supplement based on that?

Since you are female, you might want to look at studies that show that long term use of cold liver oil increases osteoporsis and hip fractures.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11754708
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18033763

I just looking into the background behind cod liver vs fish oil.

Generally the body is complex chemistry that we don't really understand. So calcium / magnesium / A / D are all inter-related. If we take too much of one element for a long period over time, it can throw off other elements. This can be slow, subtle and invisible and not show up until a distant health problem down the road.

Generally, I am open to short term use of supplements for a specific therapeutic reason if important enough but wary of long term ongoing general use if basically healthy since we don't really know how all the in the interactions are behaving.

Hence my emphasis on getting it naturally from the sun, since that has been proven over millions of years and is in line with how our body is designed.
No, it's not a concern to us, but we only take supplements during the foggiest part of winter here. Cod liver oil is the only supplement that is recommended to all Norwegians on a daily basis, which makes sense in a country where the sun doesn't come up until 10.00 in the winter (and even then you might not see it) and night falls at 15.00. Over there, immigrants have real problems with D vitamin deficiency because they tend not to takke supplements or eat enough fish. Having darker skin colour makes it even harder to produce enough D vitamin.

Here we've cut down from year around supplements to Dec.-March. We also spend quite a bit of time outside (skiing and hiking), and the Troll and I don't go crazy on sunscreen. Trollefar is Scandinavian and gets sunburns from the thought of going outside, he has to stick to fatty fish.

Incidently, I know Of several foreign ladies here who have been diagnosed with vitamin D deficiency after spending a winter in CH, none of them is active in winter sports.
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Old 19.08.2015, 20:33
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

It seems logical that the increased sunshine in the mountains compared to fog bound valleys must produce higher levels of Vitamin D. It also follows that the sunburn and cancer risk is higher.

It is probable that heading into the mountains for winter sunshine is likely to lead to more exercise. This would also be a health benefit, probably more than any effects from increased Vitamin D
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Old 19.08.2015, 20:39
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Re: Fact or Fiction: More Vitamin D up Mountains / in winter ???

I don't like sun I get my tan in a bottle
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