Hi there.

As I said on the other thread, my wife has died recently.
Brain metastases from breast cancer. In the prime of her life (early 40s).
Her histology was especially bad, which is what doomed her.
If there are any women over 35 left who don't have themselves checked regularly, they should think again.
I've been dealing with the death industry here for several weeks.
Not pleasant.

In terms of our 'affairs', they were partially but not fully in order.
The speed and manner of her demise left us all in a bit of shock.

My specific query concerns contacting banks.
My wife established a new current a/c in Autumn last year.
I've discovered the 'Vollmacht' form in my in-box with my details filled
in but unsigned & unacted upon by me. There's also an a/c at the same bank for our youngest (9 yrs) where I don't know/can't find any evidence of being added as power of attorney. Wohnsitz is Argau.

My wife also has a Post Finance a/c (Gelben Konto) and there are Post a/cs for 2 of the kids, which haven't been used much in recent years. Again I may or may not be listed with guardian powers on theses a/cs. All the other a/cs are joint, Vollmacht or established by me (@ different institutions).

My Q is, does anyone have a view (based on knowledge & experience) of whether I should simply write to the one bank & Post, indicating I want to keep/take over the a/cs, enclose copies of Todesmittelung, Familienbuchlein, my pass port etc.
Is there a probate procedure in CH for assets not expressly joint or covered by previous agreements, powers of attorney etc?

I admit I haven't done much research; thought I would feed it into the scrum here and see whether any of you have had similar experiences.

Many thanks in advance for your time & responses
Freebooter

Hello,
Sorry for your loss.

My father died last summer so here's what I learned:
- you need to find a notary who will take care of all the administrative and financial parts of the succession, including taxes and banks (i may write in franglais, sorry).
- if you wife's account were under her name only, they will be blocked from the day of her death. Only a notary can get money out of them. If the bank hasn't yet learned of her death, you might still be able to access the money.
- for your children's accounts, you should have access if they are minors, but again, only a notary can answer or give you the "certificat d'héritier" that will certify you inherit everything.

Hope this helps a bit

Sorry that things are so complicated, but I have a feeling that under Swiss Law, money 'owned' by the wife, irrespective of whether the husband had a 'Vollmacht' (?power of attorney) or not, is to be divided between the husband (50%) and the children(50%). A document which is unsigned is probably not valid anyway. Perhaps you need a certificate of inheritance to deal with the bank matters.

I suppose you have thought of the various Insurances agreements and other contracts your wife may have entered into and not cancelled when she became ill? It could be quite a financial burden if bills arrive or roll-over contracts automatically run for another year. However stupid it sounds, I'm not sure that all things automatically cancel themselves. Better safe than sorry.

I believe that now there is also a Widower Pension under the AHV rulings. I'm not sure if this applies to you, but it might be worth finding out. Also a possible 'half-orphan' pension for the children. It is difficult to think of everything and some things cannot be backdated so anything not applied for is lost.

If all this is irrelevant, sorry for wasting your time. I have never had to do all this stuff myself, but I know quite a few folk who have and know, by hearsay at least, how difficult it is.

Thinking of you.

You need an "Erbschein" an official document which states who the legal heirs are (if no last will and testament left then it will be done under swiss law). This requires you to fill out a simple form, for example this one from the courts of Zurich. Of course you need to apply to the courts of your commune.

Erbschein Zürich


With this document you can approach all the companies ie Banks, Insurances etc basically anything and anyone your wife had a contract with and have them release whatever or inform you of the values but obviously only to the people listed on the "Erbschein"

From personal experience, I wish you strength. This is an unpleasant task to have to go through while dealing with your grief. I went through this last year. It takes the floor away from under your feet... If you're in Zurich, need a hand with German and dealing with authorities on this, drop me a pm. It all becomes a lot easier once you have the Erbschein.

My deepest condolences to you and your family.

This is the translation I got for 'Erbschein', so Lynn and I are talking about the same document. I just wasn't sure that you needed one, but Lynn knows the situation better and obviously, you do.

Sorry Longbyte I meant to quote that part of your response and confirm that statement regarding the certificate of inheritance.

With regards to canceling contracts, the death certificate will suffice. EXCEPT in the case of a rental agreement where the certificate of inheritance is required if the rental agreement was just in the individuals name who passed away.

I've blocked out much of that as during the time while I was busy going through it all I was in shock and to be honest, would not have know what day, time or what my name was during those days. It does help if you can find someone to help do some of these things. I did as much as I could myself, I found that with each phone call I was a small step closer to accepting the reality. But even today, each time I go home expect to see him there. I do wish, I had given myself the time to grieve properly... Do give yourself what you need... whatever that is, be that a week or two or however long on the couch with the phones unplugged to just watch mind numbing tv and forget about the world for a while...

If like me, you find yourself wanting to do what she or in my case he would expect and handle things the way they want, do only so far as you can handle. You're the one left to carry on, and you're allowed to do it however you like. My heart really goes out to you. But nothing anyone really says at this time will make it any better...

It's OK. I only posted again to make it clear that Freebooter didn't have to start getting hold of two different documents.

I couldn't agree more about getting over things either. After six months, I still found it almost impossible to write that my brother had died. In that time I had got used to saying it but writing was quite another ball-game. And, as Lynn says, you get caught expecting the person to walk through the door again, and again, and again. The deeps get slightly less deep and they are further apart. That's all.

Hi,
Sorry, I can't help with the bank stuff, but I just wanted to express my sympathy. I am nursing my mum, she has terminal lung cancer, so all of a sudden I have a new respect for cancer, and sypathy for the people it takes and the people who are left behind.
All the best,
Sarah

Many thanks for the responses and advice.
Lynne, it's Kanton Aargau and I've found it, although it's called Erbbescheinigung there. Apparently there's a 3 month notice/waiting period.
It's not been a month yet. Also a Vollmacht might suffice; apparently it varies from institution to institution.

I've had similar sensations to what you've described, laying 4 instead of 3 settings at table. At my son's handball tournament cursed myself cos I'd forgot my mobile, cos my wife would always text to ask how it's going & what do we want for lunch/tea etc. It went so fast, 1 month from diagnosis to death, we're still in shock.
I agree re: grieving time. I haven't worked since diagnosis was confirmed-7 weeks-but need to start up again next week. The death industry, and kids, are expensive.

Thank god this process only applies to the assets that aren't expressly joint or in my name. It'd be a worse nightmare otherwise.

Anyone have a view on what they'd do if I make some payments from that a/c now? Due to a small windfall they've asked for a 100% increase in the provisional tax assessment for 07 which, together with 08's provisorisch, is exactly what I don't need now.

I'm not poor, but I want to set up the children to attend uni abroad if they wish. Not cheap.

Anyway, thanks for ploughing through my ramblings, and all your responses.
bye for now
FBooter

I just want to say thank-you for raising the issue on these forums. No-one likes to think of the death of their loved one, especially so rapidly, but please please please please please, to everyone else - get your affairs in order. See a notary, get a will made. My wife and I were surprised, but pleased to find that the Swiss will honour a will made under UK law, and honour the UK inheritance laws (except the tax component, naturally ). Our Notar knew this, but our lawyer person thingy didn't. It wasn't until we went to the Notar to have our will drawn up that we found this out. Nice guy - he forwent the fee.

If you have a Vollmacht (I think Power of attorney in english) there is no problem whatsoever for you to make payments off accounts in your wifes name. To be quite honest, if you can log in and make payments then noone is going to fight with you about it later. Its only an issue if you have an inheritance dispute...

7 weeks is a shock. I won't bother with, the usual palitudes people express. They don't tend to comfort, infact after a while they are hurtful and frustrating I find. My thoughts are with you and your kids.

Thanks for your thoughts, Lynne.
And thanks to all of you who have contributed.
It's now clear that, for assets that are not expressly joint or covered by a will Swiss law requires that they be allocated 50% to surviving spouse & 50% to the couple's children (natural or adopted), apportioned equally. If there are no children it moves out one circle but that's not relevant here.

Beautiful day; hope you're enjoying the sun on your backs
Freebooter

My wife died recently and I have to decide whether to take certain benefits as a lump sum or 'life pension'. The present value of the annuity over 30 or even 20 years is less than the value of the cash pay-out (considerably less using a realistic dicsount rate say, 6%). I'm 50 but embarrassingly fit & healthy, physically at least. My instinct, it's not much more than that at the mo, is to elect a cash pay-out & invest. Does anyone know how such a payment would be taxed in CH? (I recall the Steuererklaerung has a Q concerning widow/widowers pension)

Secondly, I want to set up the kids, or at least their further education eg, uni abroad if they wish. I have about Fr40-60k for each, the most for the eldest, who's knapp 13, so growth is needed as well as security.

I think in my position I also need to purchase a private Life Insurance/Assurance product.
As I said I'm fit & munter, but so was my wife not long ago.

Would anyone be willing to help guide me on these 3 points?

I know the clued-up & experienced amongst you will be saying 'who's this tw*t looking for free advice?' but I'm willing to take 1 or 2 on the chin in the hope that I get pointed int he right direction. I'm not thick (particularly), or (completely) financially illiterate, although that hasn't stopped me losing a small fortune in the past. Choose the metaphor you like but I'm at the end of my 2nd innings, have 2 strikes, on 7th or 8th life etc so little marge de manoeuvre for any more cockups.

Of course there'd be a few jars or lunch or whatever for anyone generous (or stupid) enough with their time & know-how to help a sad git out.

In hope, perhaps just shaded with expectation
Freebooter

I know that banks have not been flavour of the month over the recent past, but they are kitted out to give advice in these cases. The bigger banks will have advisors who speak good English also. It might be worth going to talk to a couple (or more) banks and seeing what they suggest. Of course, you don't have to take their advice, but it might give you some ideas and, best of all, it will most probably be free of charge.

This is excellent advice. Mammograms can be easily arranged at the Kantonspital in Baden by an OB/GYN. What is more difficult to find is a clinic to do a blood test to screen for three specific mutations of the BRCA1 and BRCA2 genes. This is a key indicator of a risk for breast cancer.

I am very sorry for your loss. I have no experience dealing with the adminstratives issues you are faced with here but if you do need some assistance with the language or finding information, do send me a PM.

I assume if you have been living here a while you have a network of friends but widowed suddenly and parenting alone is a lot to cope with. If there is any way I can help, just send me a PM. Even if I can't help personally, I do have good contacts in the area.

Discounting at 6% is not a realistic calculation. Nowhere can you get 6% risk free. 2 to 3% is more like the return on a 30-year annuity.

Pension will be added to income and taxed. Capital payout is taxed at a special rate. Canton ZH has online tax calculators. Search the internet for your canton of residence.

You should consult a professional financial partner!

I shall start out with: IMHO and YMMV, because these dire times do warrant such a preface.
The insurance Co's are a giant Ponzi scheme - we are going to see a lot of unpleasant news from this camp. Some has already been leaked - the 2nd pillar institutions losing money hand over fist, the medical insurance Cos will need to raise premia because of the money they have lost in the financial turmoil.

Cash Is King. There is no other way around this, it is. That is the reason, for example, why banks have been reducing their lending activities - they've been hoarding liquidity for themselves. YOU want to control YOUR future and YOU need to take responsibility for YOUR financial safety.
This also implies that you will need to take risks, but these, my friend, cannot be offloaded on anybody's shoulders, as "legal provisions", "national directives" and whatnot will not shelter anybody from the mess that will be caused by failing insurance institutions.

What risks would I personally be willing to take? Euro denominated gov't bonds (France, Germany), some bank bonds - with full gov't backing (check the prospectus), Inflation Linked gov't bonds (France has issued a series), eventually physical gold (no "structured" this-or-that, derivatives, etc), maybe 5% of commodities such as crude oil.
As Goldtop has quite correctly pointed out, the discount rates / yields now are at extremely low levels... this is the pain we must accept in this phase of the game.
I would not try to beat the market and try to achieve rates that are much higher than "risk free" gov't yields. You might have heard of the recent case of Stanford Bank, which was fraudulently promising un-naturally "interesting" yields on their Certificates of Deposit, which are now worthless.
Do keep away from "index linked", "variable" annuities which are linked to stock markets or other complex transactions. A portuguese colleague of my wife asked me to interpret the gobbledidook of the "insurance policy" he had underwritten 2 years ago - according to my calculations he lost over 50% on the "linked" side of the structure, while the bank rakes in 20% (!!) in commissions over the life of the product (additionally and indipendently from any losses sustained by this policy).

There you go.
Consult your financial advisor and, in doubt, don't sign anything.
Real cash these days is precious....

Good luck,

Paul

In order to keep the confusion level down to a minimum, two threads
from the OP with the same question were merged together.