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  #41  
Old 15.04.2009, 14:18
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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Many animals have sex just for pleasure, like dolphins. Bonobos use sex as a tool for social cohesion and some animals use sex to keep the male partner in a couple and help raise the offspring.

Sex is NOT just for procreation.
You've missunderstood me. Sex for pleasure- both physical and mental, can be with someone you know well and also with someone you hardly know at all.
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  #42  
Old 15.04.2009, 14:23
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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You've missunderstood me. Sex for pleasure- both physical and mental, can be with someone you know well and also with someone you hardly know at all.
Well no, I agree actually. I was just saying that sex for pleasure (or other things) is not a human invention and is not unnatural.
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  #43  
Old 15.04.2009, 14:25
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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You've missunderstood me. Sex for pleasure- both physical and mental, can be with someone you know well and also with someone you hardly know at all.
..........

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Many animals have sex just for pleasure
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  #44  
Old 15.04.2009, 14:36
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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Good.. XXXXXX
Keep us updated.
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  #45  
Old 15.04.2009, 23:07
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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Thank you for those who posted serious answers. No intention to have a moral discussion on abortion whatsoever as this lady (35 years old) deliberately planned things thisway, believe me, the background story is even more scary. As a woman I am absolutely repulsed by such an act. I respect ladies who raise their kids alone but in this case she made a conscious choice for someone else AND demands this amount of money ('either you pay or I go to court' were the exact words). My boyfriend is an honest guy and is of course willing to support the child but he is just shocked by the amount... (Not to mention how he imagined having a first kid in a different setting.) So...if there are more people who have valuable information, please let us know, it is very much appreciated. Many thanks.
With all due respect vlinder, 800 euros is peanuts to pay per month. I am a single mother with a beautiful 1 year old girl, and I don't regret one day of my life having her--she's a pure joy to be around. It's actually the father that is a complete deadbeat and royal pain in the ass. Thank god I never married the guy.

Her Swiss father is required by the authorities to pay a measly 600 CHF per month in child support, but he is completely delinquent in his payments. I don't chase after him for this pathetic amount because it will buy me maybe a couple packs of diapers and a dozen or so jars of baby food. Not worth the aggravation.

Your boyfriend should count his blessings it is only 800 euros he is required to pay. By the way, this amount was not picked out from the clouds, the authorities get this figure by looking at your boyfriend's salary, so even if it seems like a lot to him, he can afford it).

Trust me, despite what you may think of the mother, the money is not going towards her getting monthly spa treatments. Raising a child in Switzerland (or anywhere actually) is very expensive (full time day care alone in CH costs 2,500-3,000 CHF a month).

The 800 euro contribution will be going to the child who had nothing to do with your boyfriend and his ex-girlfriend's decision to have unprotected sex one night. Whether she told your boyfriend she was on the pill or not is now irrelevant. What is done is done. Now he needs to be a man and take responsibility for his actions.
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Old 15.04.2009, 23:19
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

guys...think twice before having unprotected sex...there is always a chance you could father a kid...if you need sex just for satisfaction, all the more you need to be sure it ends just there...
girls...think 3 times before having unprotected sex...there is always a chance you would end up pregnant and see some true colours of your partner...
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  #47  
Old 16.04.2009, 00:02
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

Sorry if this sounds harsh but I really don't see what kind of further information you are asking for. The child is genetically his or it isn't - and you've said that DNA testing indicates it is. If it is (and once that is legally established) he has child support obligations - which you've said he acknowledges and is willing to fulfill. So the question is only the amount, and for that he needs a lawyer more than a bunch of well-meaning Internet people.[/quote]


Couldn't have worded it better myself Mathnut.

But if I may add, I don't know what good a lawyer is going to do with respect to getting the amount of child support reduced. First, who determined the amount of child support? Swiss or Italian authorities? If the Swiss authorities have established the amount, they look at the father's tax returns and salary to determine what he must contribute. So, if they are requiring him to pay 800 euros a month, it is because they deem this to be a reasonable contribution given his income. It has nothing to do with the mother's requests or demands.

Should your boyfriend not pay this amount every month, it is not even the mother that would take your boyfriend to court, but the Zuerich Vormundschaftsbehoerde which steps in and acts as a guardian ad litem for the child (their job is to act in the best interest of the child). The parties to a child support contract are father and child, not father and mother.

You mention the mother is Italian. If she is in Italy and has gone to the authorities in Italy for child support, then, I cannot speak to the situation there. Either way, you should contact a lawyer specialized in these matters, but I don't really see what he or she will be able to do with respect to lowering the amount.
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  #48  
Old 16.04.2009, 00:41
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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With all due respect vlinder, 800 euros is peanuts to pay per month. I am a single mother with a beautiful 1 year old girl, and I don't regret one day of my life having her--she's a pure joy to be around. It's actually the father that is a complete deadbeat and royal pain in the ass. Thank god I never married the guy.

Her Swiss father is required by the authorities to pay a measly 600 CHF per month in child support, but he is completely delinquent in his payments. I don't chase after him for this pathetic amount because it will buy me maybe a couple packs of diapers and a dozen or so jars of baby food. Not worth the aggravation.

Your boyfriend should count his blessings it is only 800 euros he is required to pay. By the way, this amount was not picked out from the clouds, the authorities get this figure by looking at your boyfriend's salary, so even if it seems like a lot to him, he can afford it).

Trust me, despite what you may think of the mother, the money is not going towards her getting monthly spa treatments. Raising a child in Switzerland (or anywhere actually) is very expensive (full time day care alone in CH costs 2,500-3,000 CHF a month).

The 800 euro contribution will be going to the child who had nothing to do with your boyfriend and his ex-girlfriend's decision to have unprotected sex one night. Whether she told your boyfriend she was on the pill or not is now irrelevant. What is done is done. Now he needs to be a man and take responsibility for his actions.
Appreciate your opinion zurichmom but it's not anywhere near fair or decent that a woman can actually make a call like this on her own, especially putting a guy up against the wall like this, leaving no say in the whole thing whatsoever. If the child lived in the same country then at least he could build up a relationship with him/her. How do you think a guy feels like in a situation like this? It is by the way her choice to stay in Switzerland (one of the most expensive countries in Europe, of all paces).

There should always be room to talk, to think together and to negotiate but the way things go here is just undescribably ugly and actually makes me very angry. 'I keep the kid and you pay, too bad for you.' See, it's just the way it is, it happened, the kid is there, the man wants to take responsibility even after he's been told he had no choice whether he wanted the kid or not, and feeling absolutely miserable about the whole thing. A pretty harsh consequence for a naive act if you ask me. If she wanted the child then she should not cry now she cannot support it by herself - not that she has ever planned to. It's measuring with different standards.
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  #49  
Old 16.04.2009, 00:53
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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Sorry if this sounds harsh but I really don't see what kind of further information you are asking for. The child is genetically his or it isn't - and you've said that DNA testing indicates it is. If it is (and once that is legally established) he has child support obligations - which you've said he acknowledges and is willing to fulfill. So the question is only the amount, and for that he needs a lawyer more than a bunch of well-meaning Internet people.

Couldn't have worded it better myself Mathnut.

But if I may add, I don't know what good a lawyer is going to do with respect to getting the amount of child support reduced. First, who determined the amount of child support? Swiss or Italian authorities? If the Swiss authorities have established the amount, they look at the father's tax returns and salary to determine what he must contribute. So, if they are requiring him to pay 800 euros a month, it is because they deem this to be a reasonable contribution given his income. It has nothing to do with the mother's requests or demands.

Should your boyfriend not pay this amount every month, it is not even the mother that would take your boyfriend to court, but the Zuerich Vormundschaftsbehoerde which steps in and acts as a guardian ad litem for the child (their job is to act in the best interest of the child). The parties to a child support contract are father and child, not father and mother.

You mention the mother is Italian. If she is in Italy and has gone to the authorities in Italy for child support, then, I cannot speak to the situation there. Either way, you should contact a lawyer specialized in these matters, but I don't really see what he or she will be able to do with respect to lowering the amount.[/quote]

The things is that to our knowledge she does not have any access to his salary amounts or tax payments, no one has asked for them so far so where the amount comes from is a mistery anyways. By the way the lady is without a doubt a fraud (for reasons I choose not to mention here because of the recognizability) and in retrospective, all pieces of the story fall into place. From my side I guess it's just an initial attempt to learn at least something about this matter either through the well-meant advice you mentioned or other people's experiences and it has actually been helpful.
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  #50  
Old 16.04.2009, 01:12
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

"Appreciate your opinion zurichmom but it's not anywhere near fair or decent that a woman can actually make a call like this on her own, especially putting a guy up against the wall like this, leaving no say in the whole thing whatsoever."

Excuse me vlinder, but what "call" do you keep referring to? The call to keep or not keep a child? If it is not a woman's call, then whose call is it? The man's? So, are you suggesting that by law a woman should have to ask a man for permission to terminate a pregnancy? Or that a woman be legally forced to terminate a pregnancy if that is the father's wishes? You keep saying "it's not fair or decent that a woman can make a call like this." Clarify what you mean exactly.

If the child lived in the same country then at least he could build up a relationship with him/her. How do you think a guy feels like in a situation like this? It is by the way her choice to stay in Switzerland (one of the most expensive countries in Europe, of all paces).

Your comment above makes no sense. You say the mother has decided to live in Switzerland. So, presumably, it will not be difficult for the father to see the child (he is in CH too, correct?). Regardless, even if the mother lives in another country and the distance is not close, that has nothing to do with his obligation by law to pay child support (which by the way should not be a problem if your boyfriend is so "generous" and good hearted as you keep reminding us.)

There should always be room to talk, to think together and to negotiate but the way things go here is just undescribably ugly and actually makes me very angry.

Uhmmm. what exactly would you negotiate here? The amount of child support to be paid? Again, the amount is established by authorities using unbiased formulas based on what a father can afford according to his income. It is a contract between father and CHILD (again, not between father and mother). Surely, you do not expect a father and child to negotiate on how much a father ought to support his own child financially? Child support is the right of the child, not the right of the mother.


"If she wanted the child then she should not cry now she cannot support it by herself - not that she has ever planned to."

I will not even respond to the above statement as it is so utterly out of touch. So, if a woman decides to keep a child that she and a man conceived, and the man does not want it, she alone should support the child financially while the father gets off scott free? Wow....scary world that would be. All men would be getting girls knocked up and fleeing in the world according to vlinder.

It sounds like the situation is bothering you a lot more than it is the father. Quite honestly, you seem bitter the child is not yours and you probably resent the fact that all of this happened and now you indirectly have to deal with it. But the fact that you are pissed does not mean your boyfriend should have less of a responsibility for his actions. Get over it.
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  #51  
Old 16.04.2009, 01:37
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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The things is that to our knowledge she does not have any access to his salary amounts or tax payments, no one has asked for them so far so where the amount comes from is a mistery anyways.
A point of information, in some kantons tax returns are public documents, so there is no need to ask for them....

Jim.
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Old 16.04.2009, 11:44
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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A point of information, in some kantons tax returns are public documents, so there is no need to ask for them....

Jim.
Hi Jim, thanks. But we don't live in Switzerland.
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  #53  
Old 16.04.2009, 11:55
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

The bottom line is that there is an innocent child at the centre of this mess and BOTH parents, no matter how daft, naive or irresponsible they have been towards each other in the past should take responsibility and provide for the child.

The child is here now and with the best will in the world you can't put it back where it came from so wouldn't it be more productive to just move forward and find an acceptable solution which puts the needs of the child first rather than at the bottom of the list behind the mother's, the father's and the new girlfriend's?
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Old 16.04.2009, 12:02
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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""If she wanted the child then she should not cry now she cannot support it by herself - not that she has ever planned to."

I will not even respond to the above statement as it is so utterly out of touch. So, if a woman decides to keep a child that she and a man conceived, and the man does not want it, she alone should support the child financially while the father gets off scott free? Wow....scary world that would be. All men would be getting girls knocked up and fleeing in the world according to vlinder.

It sounds like the situation is bothering you a lot more than it is the father. Quite honestly, you seem bitter the child is not yours and you probably resent the fact that all of this happened and now you indirectly have to deal with it. But the fact that you are pissed does not mean your boyfriend should have less of a responsibility for his actions. Get over it.
Wow. Yeah, let me call my shrink to check whether there's something wrong with MY conscience and whether I am just on a personal crusade out of jealousy. Mamazurich, I suggest we stop this discussion as we have a 180 degree difference in point of view. I am not worried about his or my values and have no intention to convince you of any of it either. Thanks for your time though.
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Old 16.04.2009, 12:16
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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Hi Jim, thanks. But we don't live in Switzerland.
I'm not advocating this, but if she is in Switzerland and you are not, then how can this child maintenance be enforced?
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Old 16.04.2009, 12:18
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

Sandgrounder, that's what we are trying to do. My boyfriend's last letter to the mother was that he did not want the child to grow up without a father and he wanted the best for the child too. No response from her only some official letter with the amount so I don't think she wants him to be involved with the child at all but just wants the financial support.
I respect life and birth and the child's interest too. But given the situation and background story of the mother, I trust some of you can imagine you don't just comply without asking any questions.
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Old 16.04.2009, 12:32
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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I'm not advocating this, but if she is in Switzerland and you are not, then how can this child maintenance be enforced?
Because of an international agreement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_s..._jurisdictions
One focus of Article 27 of the Declaration on the Rights of the Child is the establishment and strengthening of international treaties to further aid in child support order enforcement across national and international boundaries.[76] Under these agreements, orders established in one country are considered valid and enforceable in another country, and may be pursued through local court processes. The goal of such conventions is to ensure that noncompliant parents will not be able to evade support payments by crossing an international border.
(Regardless the father's nationality, with maybe a few exceptions.)
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Old 16.04.2009, 12:40
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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Because of an international agreement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_s..._jurisdictions
but there is no 'child support order' in this case. just what appears to be an official looking letter which has been sent to your boyfriend, without it would appear any input from him!

this whole topic, thread is becoming very much like a tabloid drama. If the mother/child are resident in CH, you/r boyfriend need a layer in CH and have things settled with the authorities in CH. nothing less will hold up under an international convention.
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Old 16.04.2009, 12:57
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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Sandgrounder, that's what we are trying to do. My boyfriend's last letter to the mother was that he did not want the child to grow up without a father and he wanted the best for the child too. No response from her only some official letter with the amount so I don't think she wants him to be involved with the child at all but just wants the financial support.
I respect life and birth and the child's interest too. But given the situation and background story of the mother, I trust some of you can imagine you don't just comply without asking any questions.
OK, your boyfriend is clearly unhappy with the situation, but what exactly does he want to change? I am getting very mixed messages here - and no wonder! It's a lot to process emotionally, and I wouldn't blame him if he isn't sure yet exactly what he wants to do. He needs to figure out though, as quickly as possible. The process of determining his rights and responsibilities is going to go on, with or without input from him - so better that he gets involved now while he might still potentially be able to change some things.

You said he wants the child "not to grow up without a father"; I take this to mean he would like some sort of shared custody, visitation rights, etc. Ain't gonna happen unless he acknowledges paternity. So why has he resisted doing that?
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Old 16.04.2009, 13:13
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Re: Acknowledgement of paternity/Child support - please help

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No intention to have a moral discussion on abortion whatsoever as this lady (35 years old) deliberately planned things thisway, believe me, the background story is even more scary.
An ex of mine, oddly enough also Italian, pulled the same stunt on some poor gimp when she hit 36. She had no problem admitting to me that her only interest was having a child and was not terribly interested in the guy.

It's unfortunately an all too common phenomenon nowadays and it does get my back up that the very same morons who will one day bleat about "a woman's right to choose" will the next day cry about "won't someone think of the children".
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My boyfriend is an honest guy and is of course willing to support the child but he is just shocked by the amount...
Those can easily be the amounts involved, however this is dependant on her (and the child's) residency. If she's in Switzerland, then we're talking about 17% of the guy's income (gross rather than nett though, I think) - the amount varies from canton to canton - some are more 'father friendly' than others.
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'either you pay or I go to court' were the exact words
Let her. You presently are unsure as to any verdict, where it was made or what it was for. He's not received any official demand, only a threat. The DNA test is not an impartial one, so unlikely to be legally binding. The amount she's seeking does not consider his income or expenditure (which would have to be taken into account). In short she does not have a lot outside of bluff and bluster at present.

At the very least he would be able to appeal any judgement, force her to prove her case and then the court would decide upon his own financial situation. While international law on this will enforce payment based upon where the mother and child live, it can be appealed. For example, US law will award 20% - 30% of a father's gross income - but upon appeal, this amount will be decreased in most European countries where taxes are much higher.

The main thing, as has been suggested, is to consult a lawyer who specializes in family law. Other than giving them a clearer picture of where they stand, they will be able to suggest possible strategies. Ultimately the onus is on her to enforce any order of payment, and TBH, if you are living in different countries, the simplest way of avoiding this issue is to move and leave no forwarding address. As the Romans say; chicca.
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