i really don't know where to post this.

i am from the US and am a nanny to a german family so they aren't even swiss but we all live in basel because of their jobs.....i have known them a long time and they have been asking me for a year and a half to come here to be their nanny so the mom could go back to work....so i did...

over the past four months i have re-calibrated a lot of how i am as a nanny to suit these parents. i ignore certain things about their kids based on them saying that it's more the german way of doing things while trying to insert a few of my own ideas about raising kids...so far it has been great.

today however, when mom came home, her older son literally punched me in the stomach and then pinched me super hard to which i immediately scolded him for. he has a tendency to hit his little brother when the parents are around and i think he does this because he knows i am not as hard on him when the parents are around. this is true because as i have learned in my many years of this profession, i tend to keep it lighter when parents are around. when they get home it becomes "their call" so to speak on most matters....giving of snacks or whatever.

so after i scolded him about this she turns to me and said "please just ignore this from him"

i really couldn't help myself but stated that 'i can ignore the many things you have asked me to ignore but hitting/punching/kicking are things i will not be able to ignore'

i have been watching kids longer than they have been parents. i am trained in this as my profession and my main background is speech therapy for kids.....i am teaching them english....i know i am NOT a parent. i don't claim to know everything about raising kids but i am well versed in teaching children consequences for their actions. sort of like a private teacher....

he never does this when they are not around but the second one of them gets home he does this and he usually does it to them but today he did it to me which i just don't tolerate. they do and i am not sure why.....

he does it because they let him get away with it and he knows that i won't be as much of a disciplinarian as usual when they are there.

today was just very weird.

i have never ever had a parent tell me to ignore a childs behavior when it includes hitting and the like.

after i told mom that i wasn't able to ignore this kind of thing she shook her head and said that it was very american of me to think this way.

question is....do kids here or in germany or anywhere else in the world besides america, get away with this sort of behavior?

i have watched kids from south korea and africa and we all (parents and myself) taught them that hitting/kicking was not nice....seems so universal to me....

it's one thing to rough house with your siblings....if any of us have had brothers and sisters then we know what this is like....

i also mentioned that he wouldn't get away with this at a school or at his play group or in his therapy sessions.

so i wrote an email to both parents when i got home saying that we had to have a meeting next week about this because i really won't be able to ignore this...i have spoken with the dad about it and he is ok with me intervening when it comes to being overly aggressive.....

during our days he is fine. he knows i will give him a time out or he will have to go to the 'thinking chair' is what i call it and i talk about consequences. he is four years old and in my experience this works. but it also works better when all the adults are on the same page with child discipline.

maybe i am just ranting or i just need advice from parents out there that feel the way i do or see things her way. just trying to gain different perspectives if i can.....

so thanks in advance....re post if this isn't where it should be and so forth!

NUTS Let him punch his mami and she can ignore him

Not in our house. You must have been frustrated today, I understand your worries. I think cultural difference has nothing to do with it, sounds like a cop out to me. If you want to talk to parents about it, though, I would skip the "I am experienced, worried about the child and where is he gona end up this way", since it may make them defensive and feeling like incompetent parents. This situation imho is not questioning your abilities and skills, just shows conflicting theories..I agree with you, though, to permit a child being abusive is a slippery slope. Sounds like he is craving boundaries, not having them makes him insecure. Is he otherwise getting 1on1 quality time with his folks? There is also an interesting theory called the continuum concept on over the top child centered families.

I think the mom just thinks he does it only to get attention, if you will not give it to him he will stop, it does work with babies and only in some instances but I am not so sure with hitting. If they let him he might be hitting them when they are old and incapacitated. You can stop him, without that kind of attention he craves - he wants you angry and losing control. Be matter of fact and firm. I'd take the route of natural consequences. Where in the world would you have to accept being hit at work??? It is actually illegal, they must ensure safe working environment. That is something I would discuss with the parents.

I don't like time outs, he is young and rather needs a good example to follow, social isolation does not teach much. There is a great book called "Kids, Parents and Powerstruggles" by M.Sheedy Kurcinka (another good one is "Raising Your Spirited Child"), sounds like the folks might find it uselful, rather then hiding behind cultural stereotypes and pushing their nanny into being bullied.

thanks for that! i think part of me is afraid of losing my job, not that it is scary to go back to the US but i like it here and i love the kids and we have so much fun...it's hard to deal with the mom in ways that make me feel incompetent ... i will look up this book though for sure!!

thanks!

this is my point....that this is really not acceptable anywhere else really.....i talked with his playgroup teacher and she doesn't accept this.

i am quite firm and resolute in my handling of these situations but like i said, we have so much fun and he really doesn't do this unless the mom is around because he knows how to manipulate her.....he knows he can only manipulate me when she is around and i am there too...

i think too she is feeling guilty about going back to work.....and i am trying really hard to be oh what's the word.....sympathetic to this....i can't imagine this feeling....

thanks forum!

Don't worry about losing your work, it might put you in frenzy..And if you do lose your job with a little tyran then some other family is going to snatch you in a second. Who would want to miss on an educated, devoted, responsible and independent nanny who is looking after their children's future? Most of the child minders I met here only worried about the bare minimum they were requested to do.

I have a feeling the mom needs to have things her way, she might need you to respect "her own" little theory since you are so well versed in child raising. With the little detail she is allowing her child hit her emploee. How uncool. It is not uncommon that moms have hangups over competent nannies, especially when they stayed long at home with kids. Befriend her, show her sympathy, make her feel like a hero, then you will keep your work.

*sigh*

i do love these boys! rambunctious and very cool and learning english like mad! me not learning so much german but it will come!

hopefully with a meeting with all adults present we can figure out what to do!

but yes sometimes i think moms, and rightly so, are a bit jealous of the bonds a nanny has with their kids. i am used to this.....so i will keep in mind this sympathy and i do tell her all the time how much the kids ask after her!

thanks music chick!

Yeah, it gets all emotional, for everyone. It is good to keep a low key tone, though, even when discussing matters that really mean a lot to you (hell, yeah, I would be pissed when hit or scratched or bitten, haha..). Will make you calm.

It is a little weird to be jealous when the kids are left with somebody you can trust, it is the ideal situation, really, the mom must sometimes forget. Try to keep any sign of possible competition down, you know what I mean? Chances are, she is worried about you leaving or kids being too attached, having fun that she cannot provide for them, or whatever other weirdness..Good luck!

I guess nowhere else but in the States could the concept of a four-year old kid hitting an adult be considered "illegal" because it violates "safe working environment" regulations.

I never laughed so hard so far this year.

If you are an experienced nanny then you know that kids hit, punch, scream, bite, do all kinds of weird stuff. It is so heartening to hear how much you love them, then you know that they can suddenly kiss you, tell you you are beautiful, help you etc.
You are exactly right to address it seriously in the way you are before it escalates. The best way might be to say- how do you think they will handle this in Kindergarten? I would caution though that however prefessional you may be you can always learn from others. differetn people have different personalities.
I was trained in many areas related to childcare, yet I learned from my French au pair that kids need a lot of fresh air, physical exercise and consistency. I don't think that they get enough in kindergarten or at home. She started out as a friend who asked if she cold work for me and leave the family where the kids were kicking and biting her. She loved my son so I cared about her welfare, gave her plenty of free time etc.
She was amazing, at 19 she would throw my son on her shoulders and take off to pool with him. He returned happy and tired, she had enjoyed it too. She also only ever gave him healthy snacks. I hate to say it but she was better than my mother who was trained and had raised multiple children in different countries. I was not happy when she returned to France to study.

I have worked with a lot of children with behavioural problems. As far as possible I use modelling, getting them to observe and vocalize what they see in other children's behavior, positive reinforcement. However as a last resort I use the 'time out' chair, I hated it. I like the way the British nanny (Joe) does it.
Many children become frustrated when they can not express themselves verbally, that includes learning another language-as a speech therapist you must know that and strategies for helping them cope.

It's not an American thing. It's not cultural differences. I know some "very" German mums, who, quite frankly, would have had the kid over their knee and spanked before you could say "you vile evil child-abuser". But of course, their kids know there are boundaries, so they don't do things like hitting the nanny...

You are a professional, hired to do a job. At some points in any professional's career (regardless of the profession itself), you are going to get into situations which are in direct conflict to what you know to be best. Only you can decide at which point you will tolerate no more. Of course the situation is muddied by the fact that you've known the parents for years.

In your position, I'd sit down with mum, and explain that it may be an American thing, but you will not tolerate her kids hitting you, and if she won't take action and won't let you take action, then you can no longer continue to work for her. But I'm sure you can wrap that up in more diplomatic language than I could...

If you hire someone to do a job, then for goodness sake, let them do it.

Exactly, it is not a culture thing, kicking or slapping is not acceptable in the US. It is to do with mutual respect- adults should be modeling it and kids learning it.

I'm with Shorrick. It raises a smile when I hear "safe working conditions" and "mutual respect" bandied around in connection with a four year old. You're trained in child care so go with your instincts and training. Left to your devices you know how you would deal with the kid. I'm a Brit and whenever my kids have punched me to get attention they've got a ticking off. You said yourself that when it comes to discipline, pre school kids can't be given mixed messages. So however your discussion with the Mum ends up, this means you and his mother can't have a different reaction to his behaviour. And it goes for you too - are you doing him any favours when you react differently by relaxing discipline when his parents are around? As Hoppy said, at the end of the day the boy is doing what lots of four year old kids do and from what you say he doesn't sound like a little monster. So isn't this is as much about you and the mother as you and the boy? If you can't get on the same page about how the kid is to be disciplined then is the relationship with her workable?

the parents are good parents and they provide for their kids. i do arts and crafts, parks the zoo pools museums you name it! i opted for this choice in caring for kids instead of working in an office. can you imagine why? it keeps my young!

i have modeled to the older one gentle touching and now instead of hitting his brother he'll go up and hug him and kiss his head. it's very cute.

what i have learned as a nanny is that both parents and the nanny should be on relatively same pages when it comes to things like TV time or play time or learning time and of course discipline.

earlier this week i was given this timed schedule of my days with the boys....and i felt like we were all being micromanaged by mom. so i wrote this tome about how i love their kids and how i have their best interests at heart and so on....

i really use the time outs as a last resort. i am more inclined to teach kids why something is right or something is wrong.....

kids hit and do things to see how much they can get away with. odd that it seems that usually the nanny is the one that lets kids get away with more than the parents. this is opposite which makes my job a bit more of a challenge!

at least it's the weekend and we can all think about this and hopefully we'll have a meet and resovle!

no i am not doing him any favors.....and no he's a sweet boy....but he does see the message that i won't do what i normally do when she is around. i have tried and she stops me usually. the dad, he doesn't but the mom does. so it's all about us getting together to really hammer out this idea that we all have to agree on what measures to take, aside from ignoring it. i am more than willing to do what they ask. they are the parents i am just the care giver.....

thanks everyone. i don't have a ton of friends here especially those that are parents....very sound advice and things for me to question and think about in this regard. it's the first time something like this has come up in my job....

and while it might be illegal to hit someone at a job, it's a child who is a sponge needing to learn the ins and outs of these things.....

- The boys are looking for attention from their mother.

Boy's thinking:
Will Mom look at me? How will she react? Am I pushing my behaviour too far? Can I go even farther? Why isn't she giving me more attention? I like the nanny but want my mommy!

- The mother feels guilty and is afraid to be the mean one.

Mother's thinking:
I'm tired. I can't be bothered. If I discipline them, they'll love me less. It's just the bloody nanny who's costing me a ton of money. If the boys are hitting her, then she has deserved it. I'll give them some attention later.

It's a no-win situation.

It's not like I want to keep talking out of my ass, haha...It's hard to guess what's going on, being parents ourselves most times it's hit and miss kinda thing, anyways

Shorrick, I am glad you got tickled.. The safety issues don't mean op is in life threatening place, but why should somebody be subjected to being a punching bag, just because the mom is not coping? Work is work, even if you are hired by friends.

It all points at the mom's guilt, which is unfortunate. Is there a group of aupairs or nannies around where you live? I know one fabulous baby sitter and she meets up with her colleagues and they discuss all sorts of things, organize trips abroad together and b*tch about their work, which is good. Plus they might know of another family in case you need it?

Some things I learned as a Spielgruppenleitern -(Playgroup leader); some boys do this to get physical contact - he is not keen to hug but wants your physical contact because he loves you. One boy who did this to me, I just hugged him every time. It soon stopped. I kinda feel thats whats happeneing here because of when it is happening- just when mummy comes thru the door, getting coat off, wants to unwinde herself etc.. boy wants all her attention immediately if not sooner.

The parent may be trying to ignore because they think it is an attention getting thing - if you ignore it, he doesnt get the attention he wants from this behaviour.

However, when I first read you post, all I would have wanted to do was quit(!!) They are so lucky to have a person willing to care for their kids while they go to work(!)

I dont believe this at all!!
I am sure the mother cares very much, but doesnt know how to deal with it best either!! You dont have to know everything, all the time.
I am sure the mother is very grateful to have someone whom she can trust looking after her kids, and is very willing to pay her for it!!

did i mention that i dont think a 4 year old really thinks as much as you guys give them credit for? I think they run more on the instant thoughts in their head.. like Nike.. Just Do It!