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  #41  
Old 12.01.2010, 14:17
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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Super, then following that logic people like me should receive pay from the state for housework and childcare we do AFTER we come home from work.
..not really right even you follow the logic. Having '2 jobs' --at work + taking care of kid after coming home doesn't make you more important than one full time job --working full time at home. 2 jobs aren't necessary give you more stress than 1 job basing on same amount of time invested.


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What I do not understand is the number of educated, perfectly capable, women who on purpose throw away their careers and financial independence when they get married. I simply can not believe that after they get back from their everyday school run, wipe spilt food off their tables and make themselves a cup of tea, they do not ask themselves: 'Is this all that there is to life?'
It depends on the portion of time you do your houseworks vs caring for your kids. For me, houseworks = "not important and urgent" in work world. One couldn't avoid it but must do...so the challenge is how to make it highly efficient or 'delegate'. I delegate it to dishwasher, oven, in-home washing machine, mixer etc. I tried to spend most of the time interacting with my kids to make it quality time... and still have some time for me to browse EF
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  #42  
Old 12.01.2010, 14:26
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

Crap argument.. a hobby my arse!!

What does a Ferrari do for the state?! A child when it grows up works, pays taxes, supports the country. It makes sense that the government should help pay towards the care & raising of kids via child support, tax incentives etc. The government should also do more for women, give them more choices and stop the ridiculous school system that keeps women tied to the home whether they wish to be there or not.
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  #43  
Old 12.01.2010, 14:29
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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Crap argument.. a hobby my arse!!

What does a Ferrari do for the state?! A child when it grows up works, pays taxes, supports the country. It makes sense that the government should help pay towards the care & raising of kids via child support, tax incentives etc. The government should also do more for women, give them more choices and stop the ridiculous school system that keeps women tied to the home whether they wish to be there or not.
Ehm, following this argument the government sees children as an investment in the future ? Something that is going to result in income for the state in the long run ? Why do lots of countries then have a huge national debt ?
And the argument that children will pay my pension in the future, am I not saving for my own pension at the moment ?
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Old 12.01.2010, 14:40
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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Ehm, following this argument the government sees children as an investment in the future ? Something that is going to result in income for the state in the long run ? Why do lots of countries then have a huge national debt ?
And the argument that children will pay my pension in the future, am I not saving for my own pension at the moment ?
How did you come to this world? Obviously your mom was doing a hobby out of you or you came on here and you were already an adult? I would likt to see you saying that in her face!
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  #45  
Old 12.01.2010, 14:40
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

LOL, was just reading the last couple of posts which seemed to be getting a bit too serious... when I just had the shout "I've finished"

Nothing like wiping a young ones arse to put things into perspective

Oh the joys of parenting!!
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  #46  
Old 12.01.2010, 14:42
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

If your pension goes walk about and you end up disabled or just too old to move, you'll need government assistance so you'll be looking to all the toddlers running around now to do their bit.

A Ferrari doesn't add any value to society, kids in the future will.
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  #47  
Old 12.01.2010, 14:44
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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Ehm, following this argument the government sees children as an investment in the future ? Something that is going to result in income for the state in the long run ? Why do lots of countries then have a huge national debt ?
...guess the huge national debt is caused by those people raising up by parents who believe in 'having kid is a hobby'......
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  #48  
Old 12.01.2010, 14:46
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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How did you come to this world? Obviously your mom was doing a hobby out of you or you came on here and you were already an adult? I would likt to see you saying that in her face!
This idea of kids being a hobby comes from this true story:

Friends of mine moved from Holland to Australia about 6 years ago. The woman didn't really want to go but my friend got a fantastic job offer and it has always been his dream to go down south. His girlfriend however complained that she would have nothing to do there, no job, no friends, she would climb the walls with boredom. So, she said, she wanted a hobby, she would agree to moving to aussie if they would start having children.... They have 2 boys now.

Point being, except from the occasional accident people have children for selfish reasons, why should society pay ? I mean, except for a short period in the Germany of the 1930's not many people have kids 'just because its good for society and our country wants us to contribute', right ?

sorry for derailing the thread by the way, I apologise.
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Old 12.01.2010, 21:45
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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Ehm, following this argument the government sees children as an investment in the future ? Something that is going to result in income for the state in the long run ? Why do lots of countries then have a huge national debt ?
And the argument that children will pay my pension in the future, am I not saving for my own pension at the moment ?

Correct.

While at a biological level having children is a selfish thing, at a societal level it is essential.

Why do you think most government agencies are seriously concerned about the low birth rates and increasing life expectancy? Coupled together, it means that more people are going to put a drain on society, without having the necessary man power (pardon the term in the context of this thread!) to replace the shortfall in earnings.

We are not talking about private pensions, we are talking about increased healthcare costs and increased services provided to the elderly. Who do you think pays for that? It is today's earners.

National debt is related to countries borrowing now against the future, to ensure the status quo is maintained as much as possible. Without a replacement workforce, the debt will never be repaid.

PS: I agree, your Ferrari analogy sucks!
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  #50  
Old 12.01.2010, 23:26
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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..not really right even you follow the logic. Having '2 jobs' --at work + taking care of kid after coming home doesn't make you more important than one full time job --working full time at home. 2 jobs aren't necessary give you more stress than 1 job basing on same amount of time invested...EF
Errr, I never said that it was more important. It should be equally important. Contrary to what many here seem to think, I have a lot of respect for the actual work that stay-at-home mothers do.

I simply found it illogical that, if we go as far as to advocate actual monetary compensation by the state, only the housework done by full-time mothers should warrant such recognition. I also shine my floors and wipe spilt food when I come home from work.
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Old 12.01.2010, 23:30
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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PS: I agree, your Ferrari analogy sucks!
I'm afraid that you started it -- with the 'most expensive car you can afford' analogy earlier on
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  #52  
Old 13.01.2010, 07:59
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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I'm afraid that you started it -- with the 'most expensive car you can afford' analogy earlier on
Boo hiss! My analogy worked. The Ferrari "hobby" was irrelevant

I was thinking about this last night, and I felt that I should add that while I can see why some people are very happy with giving "it" all up to be parents (see earlier post), I can also see why some people are frustrated by being stuck at home having worked so hard on their career.

It is really about mixing priorities and (available) choices - I would imagine that frustration usually comes when you have had your choices limited.

Last edited by Carlos R; 13.01.2010 at 09:02.
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Old 13.01.2010, 08:12
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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Boo hiss! My analogy worked. The Ferrari "hobby" was irrelevant

I was thinking about this last night, and I felt that I should add that while I can see why some people are very happy with giving "it" all up to be parents (see early post), I can also see why some people are frustrated by being stuck at home having worked so hard on their career.

It is really about mixing priorities and (available) choices - I would imagine that frustration usually comes when you have had your choices limited.
Yes, and you could create a system that part of your pension could be used to help with the costs.
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Old 13.01.2010, 08:14
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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While at a biological level having children is a selfish thing, at a societal level it is essential.

Why do you think most government agencies are seriously concerned about the low birth rates and increasing life expectancy? Coupled together, it means that more people are going to put a drain on society, without having the necessary man power (pardon the term in the context of this thread!) to replace the shortfall in earnings.

We are not talking about private pensions, we are talking about increased healthcare costs and increased services provided to the elderly. Who do you think pays for that? It is today's earners.
Sounds like a giant Ponzi scheme to me....
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Old 13.01.2010, 08:15
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

We've come up with a good balance at home. Wife works full time - grumbles sometimes but is a high-flying career type and generally happy with this. I am the entrepreneurial type who would hate to have 'a career' rather than a set of interesting experiences that pay. I have clients and contracts around Europe but the work is flexible and from home.

This year I've reigned in my work a bit (partially my doing, partially the global downturn) so now work work approx. 70%, pick the kids up from school at 3:30 and enjoy the afternoon with them. Yeah I now pick up a decent amount of housework but for me its a small price to pay for time with the kids.

It is enevitable that tensions arise sometimes between my wife and I as to who's got the better deal but on the whole we are both happy with our lot - mainly cos it works from a family perspective and cos we know nothing is forever - next year it might be the other way around.

Most important of all kids get a decent amount of parent time so they seem to come out ok also.
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  #56  
Old 13.01.2010, 08:16
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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Sounds like a giant Ponzi scheme to me....
The worrying thing is that you are probably right
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Old 13.01.2010, 08:28
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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....I simply found it illogical that, if we go as far as to advocate actual monetary compensation by the state, only the housework done by full-time mothers should warrant such recognition. I also shine my floors and wipe spilt food when I come home from work.
It is an interesting discussion point, paying stay-at-homers, and I haven't commented on it yet... (always an opportunity!)

CH: wages are usually stacked so that you can survive on one wage, certainly for "professional" positions. Society is set up so that one parent is expected to be at home (vis-a-vis school hours). Apparently the major tax breaks as a couple come not when you are married but when you have children. This has lead to several Swiss friends saying they would get married when they decided to have children (ever practical!).

UK: ever since the middle classes have been pushing themselves upwards (with Maggie T's help in the '80s and '90s), there has been a drive to earn and (thus) get more. Hence the (perceived) need to earn two wages. Added to which the cost of living in GB (IMO) is actually greater for a comparative lifestyle than in CH. This means that in order to keep up with the Jones you need to have two wages. You can add more financial pressure by tapping into the ingrained need for all Brits to own their own home/house.

Does this mean that the state should compensate you for staying at home?

I want to, but I just can't agree with it.
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Old 13.01.2010, 08:50
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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Ehm, if you want to have a child, that's your own choice, right ? Why should society pay you for that ? Any hobby costs money so, maybe I should ask to get paid too when I buy a ferrari and want to stay at home to take care of it...
That is an excellent question.
The answer is that society actually wants us to have children. There are Cantons where parents are paid a stipend for the children they have. I don't remember the exact numbers but it is a payment for having children.

Without children who is going to support us in our dotage? I don't mean this as a family but rather as a society.

Of course, a lot of people "have" their children. Some of us bought ours.
I assume that the car question is just a bit of smart ass repartee?
Of course a Ferrari isn't a family car. As my daughter would say, "No, back seat!" She told my wife that, "Daddy, needs a Porsche. It has a back seat!"

She, is such a good girl.

BTW, I am a stay at home dad. I have a job in the USA, but I am a theatre technician and the Unions seem different over here so I haven't really tried that hard. Also, I don't speak French well enough to work in dangerous environment that is the Stage Hand's world.

Still, this is probably a different topic.
Brian.
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Old 13.01.2010, 09:02
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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The person who stays at home -for the kids- should receive a real salary from the state. It's a real and how important job !!!
You are totally right! So lets begin with giving rep. point to all stay-at-home mommy and daddy!
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Old 13.01.2010, 09:43
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Re: Stay at home wife/husband/partner

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Boo hiss! My analogy worked. The Ferrari "hobby" was irrelevant

I was thinking about this last night, and I felt that I should add that while I can see why some people are very happy with giving "it" all up to be parents (see earlier post), I can also see why some people are frustrated by being stuck at home having worked so hard on their career.

It is really about mixing priorities and (available) choices - I would imagine that frustration usually comes when you have had your choices limited.
I do not see how your analogy worked. You talked about the choice between buying the most expensive car one can afford and spending money on something entirely different.

I talked about non-discrimination. If housework were to have some kind of monetary value assigned, one hour of such work should have the same value regardless of whether the person performing it does it as a full-time or part-time job.
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