A good girlfriend of mine once put it very succintly - the time to leave is when your partner no longer brings you joy.

It is busy with children and there are arguments about what to do and when but this is not the reason for the break up. Children are amazing you can't blame the break up of a relationship on having children.
Mine was probably doomed from the start but I'm so glad to have the children, they have helped us get along and stay friends.
They have given me more than I ever gave them only people without children see them as an addition to their lives rather than individuals in their own right.

No, you are right. Not all marriages are bad....but to quantify that. I assume the going divorce rate is at arounf 50%. Those 50% that chose to divorce are people who ahd the guts to do so. How many others out there are simply riding it out (because of various reasons, been together since the creation of the earth, pressure from family environtment) or simply stay together for the kids sake. Marriage is a beautiful ting if it works out...but regardless of how you want to quantify it, it isn't a successful institution.

Our first sprog arrived 15 months after we got married. (We'd been "courting" for three years prior to getting married, but didn't live together). So our married relationship has never really been childless. I find parenthood demanding, emotionally and physically (except the conception ), but incredibly rewarding and fulfilling.

What will be interesting is that very soon they won't need us around. How will that affect our marriage? I know some couples have found that as challenging as when children suddenly appear!

We plan on travelling a lot more, I can tell you that - when we only have to buy two plane tickets instead of five! And because we had kids so young, we'll still be energetic enough to enjoy our new found freedom!

well you did bring it up first DB

i don't think that is what LI was saying at all...i don't have any kids. And the couples i know who don't have kids, do have more money to spend on travel. and to be honest, a trip to amsterdam is not over the top extravagant, most people who live and work in switzerland can afford to make a trip there (even with kids)
Also, who are we to judge who is suitable to give advice? i know married couples with kids who could give me worse advice than someone who has been divorced or is gay or is a widower ie. there is no "perfect model" for this.

A friend of mine is going through this right now. Together more than 10 years, they have a child together as well and she has tried everything, couples therapy included. But she says she does not want to go home any more, has a knot in the stomach every evening - always worried about what his mood might be, what is the problem that evening, what will he be yelling about this time..

I would say that this is definitely a sign. If you are afraid to go home and relieved when your partner is not there, then probably this marriage should be put out of its misery.

If you look at the divorce rate, then maybe you're right. If you look at the marriage rate though, then, at least last time I saw the figures , marriage is just as popular as ever.

And of course, we surely know many divorced people who've remarried. Often more than once!

That is a very good point. And my sister has just made a valuable contribution to the former (and possibly the latter) by finalising her third divorce.

Any relationship is over when you listen to your inner voice which is telling you the real truth and you know that you're just going along with your partner out of laziness, routine and because you can't bear the thought of tearing it all up and starting again. When you're out with your partner and you feel like you've settled for second best and you can't honestly tell them that you're in love, these are all real indicators that things aren't well in the family home.

Before both partners stop kidding themselves that it will get better and neither make a change or agree to part their ways nothing will change. When you find true love again you will probably realize that what you had before was simply a compromise or a watered down alibi of a relationship.

This is a terribly depressing thing to read, and might explain what is wrong with so many marriages: Unreasonable expectations.

I am looking forward to being married (not so keen on the wedding day itself, but one has to get through these trials, doesn't one?), and nurture the hope of having children, but am under no illusion that either of these things are going to bring me and my wife endless and unalloyed delight to the end of our earthly days.

I am expecting to be miserable, disappointed, subject to unbearable pressures and expectations. I am expecting to be harassed, annoyed, oppressed by the call of duty. I am expecting to see my precious things broken and my carpets ruined. I am expecting my relationship with my wife to change from the joyful pre-nuptial idyll in which we currently live to something else completely.

That's marriage.

Of course there are good things - seeing one's children do well at school and, if they work very hard, college. Growing old together with someone with similar principles and ideals. Companionship, family life, a busy kitchen and a warm hearth. Surprise birthday presents. Family days out to the lake.... I'm sure the list will be a long one - but these things must be earned, they are not, for anybody, a right.

Perhaps our rights-driven culture has forgotten the fact that happiness is something towards which we must work - that nothing is given to us for nothing?

Those who expect marriage and child raising to be anything other than a long, hard grind, with occasional bright flashes of delight, are, perhaps, just setting themselves up for disappointment and divorce.

I just feel sorry for their children...

...you sound like a divorcee going for round 2. But I feel you on the kids part. Children are usually the ones who suffer.

Nah. I just have eyes and a brain.

Here, we have to diverge - a quick Google gave me a value of 25.5% divorce per marriage in CH (http://www.divorcereform.org/gul.html). So half what you are thinking - are there other more recent data you have? (I'm genuinely currious.)

I think you oversimplify IMO. Sure some people ride it out. But the current "accepted wisdom" that I've seen often repeated is that you shouldn't stay together for the sake of the kids. Indeed that's where even more stress comes out. This is just my way of saying that I don't think this is a valid argument in this case.

Then why are people still doing it? "Just because"? I don't agree. As NotAllThere said, it is awefully popular still - although is that just 'cos we're all brainwashed?

Us too - I really wanted all children prior to age 30 - didn't quite happen that way, but I want to be young when I have my kids. Sure, maybe lacking in experience and not as financially stable, but you can do without that if you are healthy - that's something you can't buy.

I guess we probably agree that we are not talking about abusive relationships (verbal or physical) - unless you're into that kind of thing - deffo time to walk/run out of the door...

Curious you highlight it's the women who can't tolerate the other half. Do you think this is a gender issue? I'd be interested what others think.

Do you have a source for this info, please?

Oh, and if anyone's still in doubt as to what makes it work:

Sex and money
Money and sex
Sex and money
Money and sex
Sex and money
+ the ability to laugh at one's self.

It's healthy to have doubts from time to time, though not all the time. Don't be dreaming of Gold and wake next to Silver. Life really is too short if you're unhappy.

You just fall out of love.

I've done it twice now and I can honestly say it wasn't my child's fault nor did I ever have unreasonable expectations within my marriages.
I just fell out of love and had to admit it to myself.
Never an easy decision but one I couldn't avoid facing.

I'd prefer this the other way round. The time to leave is when you no longer feel any urge to bring your partner joy.

According to Mr L, whom I have just asked, this is a very old-fashioned way of thinking. Suits me.

Yes, i agree with you completely and hadn't considered it from this selfless angle, I'm afraid.

I am not sure how money makes a problem for marriage. in poor asian countries people hold onto each other no matter what. even if they do not have a bread (or rice as they say) for tomorrow.

Yes, but it is not always easy to label the relationships. Surely all people can be upset or stressed sometimes and while it is of course not nice to take your frustrations out on your family members, it still happens. So when is it enough?

internets

Hey I'd prefer to be divorced with children than happily married without them.