Son accidentally damages another child's jacket - liability? - Page 7

cannut · #**121** 20.03.2010, 02:13

	Quote:	HTD
	nope, this is Switzerland, what goes on in the playground gets reported to the teacher who speaks to the school psychologist who speaks to the child, and the parents and the headmaster who calls in ....

Gee not a other referendum

Klostersgirl · #**122** 20.03.2010, 07:51

I took advice yesterday and had a glass or two of wine and an early night following a sleepless one the night before worrying about this issue and have only just seen the most recent postings.

I asked for other views on the situation, and am grateful to receive all, including those that don't concur with mine.

To Peg A, I am not really trying to be obtuse in refusing to deal with the child, but rather put a proper process in motion.

I take your point about how hard the hood was pulled - I certainly don't think my kid is an angel, but in all his years of school he has never received a "black mark" for disrespecting either teachers, other pupils and the school rules. (He's had plenty for the usual dog ate my homework excuses though).

Boys at this age are certainly trying out their strength. The other kid is bigger than my son though and also older. My boy is the youngest in the class (just turned 13) others are 14 and some even turning 15 soon.

My feeling is that a 14 year old is trying to extort money from me. I know its subjective but the other clothes the boy wears and his housing really indicate a family on low income. That concerns me on two counts. To be honest we are not a family on a low income and I would absolutely hate someone to suffer from our actions. On the other hand I'm not going to be taken for a mug.

If one of the parents calls or writes (another option I suggested) shows me the jacket and the receipt, I will obviously do something (maybe go 50/50).

By the was kids hitting each other in the playground are an everyday occurrence. Kids are also smoking in the playground. Reporting it to the teacher would have made my son look like a wimp and I do sort of understand his actions. Street cred is important to a 13 year old.

My son made an odd little comment last night. Apparently the other boy wants a new TV (the kids had been talking about it in school) another kid said that you could buy one for CHF400. Am I being overly-suspicious in thinking that its odd that this amount has now come up in this compensation claim?

Nina123 · #**123** 20.03.2010, 08:01

Besides, if you do end up giving that kid 400CHF, who knows tomorrow he wants to buy an X-box and comes hitting your child again?

gata · #**124** 20.03.2010, 09:40

To the OP. No you are not. Dont buy a new TV to the kid

Fraueli · #**125** 20.03.2010, 10:01

	Quote:	rowayton1999
	In my opinion, it is the different culture issue here. I am not talking about the actual instance but the OP refuses to talk to the boy/call them back and the boy's mother refuses to talk to the OP. We are in Switzerland, so I think we should adapt to their custom how to handling things here. If the other family wants their son to resolve his own problem, the OP should respect that.

What chapter is that in the "Swiss Way to Do Stuff" - I've been searching but just can't seem to find it?

And besides what about what the OP wants?.......aside from another glass of wine of course.

Peg A · #**126** 20.03.2010, 10:02

I know it seems I am unsympathetic, I am sorry if I sound harsh.

I know plenty well what boys can do as both of my brothers (as well as my younger sis) came to me for help with those trouble situations in their teens in order to avoid the wrath of our parents.

I also understand why (for your son's sake) you wouldn't want to draw attention to whatever happened at the school, particularly if he was reacting to bullying as opposed to horseplay.

On the other hand, it is possible that the other boy's parents do not know that he hit your son and THAT is why they are prompting him to contact you for recompense. This is why I think that you really should contact them - to verify what they do and don't know - so that you have a better idea how to proceed.

PJSleep · #**127** 20.03.2010, 10:35

first of all its about a jacket being damaged - everything else is conjecture.

both boys agree that boy #1 did damage the jacket of boy #2.

goal: repair and/or replace the jacket.

resolution options:
- ignore it.
- let the boys sort it out between them.
- let the school sort it out.
- call the insurance company and let them sort it out.
- parental intervention via viewing the jacket assessing the damage and
taking action accordingly including: a. repairing the jacket, b. establishing
value (e.g.,viewing a receipt) and making a cash payment for all, half or a portion
of the jacket, c. taking both boys shopping for a replacement jacket of
like or equal value if the original jacket is no longer in the store, d. etc.

secondly, any collateral issues should be handled separately should the need arise.

goal: protect the the children.

- eminent danger: if boy #2 is putting boy #1 in harms way via violent actions then the school must be notified immediately and steps taken to ensure the security of boy #1.

- quality of education: if boy #1 & boy #2 are constantly at odds with each other (for whatever reason) to the extend that it is compromising either child's scholastic performance then the school must be notified immediately and steps taken to rectify the situation.

- stealing/conning: if boy #2 and/or his family are in fact attempting to extort money from boy #1 and/or his family then the police should be contacted immediately.

Klostersgirl · #**128** 20.03.2010, 10:44

	Quote:	Peg A
	I know it seems I am unsympathetic, I am sorry if I sound harsh. I know plenty well what boys can do as both of my brothers (as well as my younger sis) came to me for help with those trouble situations in their teens in order to avoid the wrath of our parents. I also understand why (for your son's sake) you wouldn't want to draw attention to whatever happened at the school, particularly if he was reacting to bullying as opposed to horseplay. On the other hand, it is possible that the other boy's parents do not know that he hit your son and THAT is why they are prompting him to contact you for recompense. This is why I think that you really should contact them - to verify what they do and don't know - so that you have a better idea how to proceed.

No you don't sound unsympathetic or harsh. You just have a different viewpoint to my own.

By the way, although I commented that the other kid is older and bigger, I don't for one moment think it was bullying. From what I understand the other boy is unpopular in the class. My son refers to him as an attention seeker, in this instance he was clearly seelking attention, although the attention he got was negative.

You are, of course, quite right in that I don't know what he has told his parents. However, I know he has told his mother that we are not prepared for the 2 children to deal with it, but rather parent to parent. I know this because I heard him telling her whilst he was on the 'phone to me. We're not talking about a few francs here - CHF400 is a reasonable sum and certainly far too much money for my son to have access to and to agree to pay over without any proof of purchase/damage etc. In any event I don't see myself as responsible for what another child does or doesn't tell his parents.

Wouldn't you think that the boy's mum would now step in? Some people have commented that this is the way the Swiss do it. I've had no experience of anything like this before, but I've obviously discussed it with a couple of my Swiss friends and they both think it most odd as well. I also told the boy that I seriously doubted the jacket had cost CHF400. As the Mum, I would have been annoyed at this (if its true) and would have wanted to get on the 'phone and put me right or at least would have produced the receipt to prove it. When I made my comment to the boy he asked me if I had insurance. I find that odd.

I left it that the mother or father could call my husband on Monday. We are in the mountains this weekend and I didn't want to give my husband's mobile number as it is also his work number. We will see if they call Monday and then decide what to do from there - if anything further.

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

gata · #**129** 20.03.2010, 11:19

If they dont just ignore it. Too much thought has been given to the matter already. I guess unnerving (correct word?) the parent (which has happened already - hense the topic) is an easier way to a new tv that lets say a paper round

andy02 · #**130** 20.03.2010, 11:46

	Quote:	Klostersgirl
	I wonder if anyone could give me any advice on how to handle a situation which arose recently. My son is in the first year of the Sek. During the morning break a boy in his class came over and punched him on the arm. My son gave chase to this boy and grabbed him by the hood of his jacket. Pretty normal playground activity for boys aged 13/14. However that evening the other child rang my son and said that the hood of his jacket was damaged and that my son would have to pay for it. The boy's mother was in the background but did not come to the 'phone nor did she ask to speak to me. My son said that he would talk to his parents about the matter. I told my son to apologise for the damage at school the next day and tell the boy that his mother or father could ring us to discuss. The following day the boy said that it was up to us to call his mother and so we sent a brief written note stating that we were aware that accidental damage had been caused to an item of the boy's clothing following an unprovoked attack on our son and that if the parents thought there was anything further to discuss they could ring us. We heard nothing. Tonight, some 3 weeks later, the boy rang and spoke to me (again his mother was in the background but refused to come to the 'phone). I said that we preferred it if one of his parents discussed the matter with my husband (due to my language ability) but explained that my husband was not at home as he was with clients. I said the boy's mother or father could call us on Monday. We then got into a protracted wrangle about who should ring who, ending with me stating that I simply would not discuss the matter with a child. During the conversation the boy told me that the jacket was brand new and cost CHF 400. Having been at a school visit day today and seeing the boy in question, I rather rudely told him that he didn't look like he wore clothes costing this sort of amount. He said that the jacket was a "windstopper" and assured me that this was the cost. Naturally, I don't want my son damaging other people's property but am really unsure of how to handle this. I find it very odd that the other boy's parents won't get involved and expect me (or more accurately my son) to hand over CHF 400. Obviously I can ask them to produce a receipt and we need to check whether we have accidental damage liability insurance for our kids - a question the other boy asked me. We are new to the area and I don't want to create bad feeling with other parents and obviously don't want any backlash at school for my son. On the other hand another boy told me that this family are weirdos and that he once had to pay CHF 5 when he damaged a buckle on this kid's belt. Any advice or opinion would be gratefully received. Thanks in advance.

As with a traffic accident: say nothing and refer the complainant to your insurer. If you have household insurance it almost certainly includes third-party liability and legal indemnity. Arguing about anything, and certainly admitting any facts, can only damage your case and compromise your insurance cover. And the other side will use your lack of language fluency against you.

(That said, in 1965 in Basel, when the VW I was driving was hit from behind while I was waiting to turn left, and the police told me I would be fined CHF 25, I demanded to see a judge -- who turned out not to speak a word of French or English. In my schoolboy German I defended myself and the case was dismissed.)

The liability of parents for damage done by children is so variable in time and space that I'm not going to opine on it. It would seem that the age of criminal responsibility in Switzerland may be as low as 7, but it is not obvious that any crime was committed here:
http://www.scotlawcom.gov.uk/downloa...l_response.pdf

Richdog · #**131** 20.03.2010, 12:01

	Quote:	Klostersgirl
	No you don't sound unsympathetic or harsh. You just have a different viewpoint to my own.

It's ok, she's a known knee-jerker.

	Quote:	rowayton1999
	The other boy started the fight but the OP's son was not completely innocence here. He did "fight" back; he chased after the other boy and pulled his jacket instead of going to the authority.

I love posts like this, simply laughable. Pure EF.

Peg A · #**132** 20.03.2010, 12:27

	Quote:	Richdog
	It's ok, she's a known knee-jerker.

Your opinions about me do NOT belong in this thread. If you wish to have a civil discussion, I invite you to send me a PM, otherwise I'll take it as the hyena braying that your semi-frequent digs at me seem to be.

I await a fresh red blobbie from you, at your convenience of course.

the_clangers · #**133** 20.03.2010, 19:49

	Quote:	rowayton1999
	In my opinion, it is the different culture issue here. I am not talking about the actual instance but the OP refuses to talk to the boy/call them back and the boy's mother refuses to talk to the OP. We are in Switzerland, so I think we should adapt to their custom how to handling things here. If the other family wants their son to resolve his own problem, the OP should respect that. It is not that his parents are completely leaving the issue on their son's hand, his mom is in the background guiding him. I know there are a lot of Swiss customs/ mantalities that we don't agree with; but we are living in their country, we should try to understand that and try to do/resolve things their ways. The other boy started the fight but the OP's son was not completely innocence here. He did "fight" back; he chased after the other boy and pulled his jacket instead of going to the authority. Both parties should take the consequence, the problem should already been compromise from the beginning rather than making a big deal out of it. Children teases/provoke each other everyday(as long as no major harm done), it shouldn't make a big fuss. It doesn't matter who needs to call who, who deals with whom… just get it over with. There are more important stuffs you need to worry about in life or your children life.

I have just realised that all you people who keep insisting that the child should speak on his own behalf are absolutely correct.

And since he is speaking on his own behalf, he should speak to the other child. I figure since we are so keen on letting children sort their own problems out the two children should sort their own problems out. Of course the fact that the second child probably doesn't have 400chf is just one of the downsides to this sort of solution. But, you guys said that you wanted the children to deal with their own messes.

This is an interesting life lesson. What happens when you put yourself into a position where you loose the value of something that someone else is not in a position to compensate you for? I think you guys are on to something.

OP, next time the child calls, just let him speak with your son, on speakerphone if you have one. Let the abusive child learn the very important life lesson of trying to get blood from a turnip or stone or whatever culturally relevant object it is around here.

Of course if the parents want to act like they are actually parents instead of counsellors then they might get much further with someone who actually has a wallet or checkbook with more than a few rappen in it. If you want someone to pay the piper then perhaps you should talk to the person with the gold? While it is true that they may be Swiss, they also need to understand that some of us aren't and unless there is a "law for it or agin it" I don't know what they are going to actually accomplish. This is a multicultural country and just because some of us aren't Swiss doesn't make us wrong or stupid or immoral.

Brian.

nickatbasel · #**134** 20.03.2010, 20:04

Erm...so the other kid attacked your son. Your son defended himself. The other kid got some clothing torn in the scuffle. I can't see where your son is at fault - the other kid brought it on himself and should treat the incident as learning exercise.

Cheers,
Nick

	Quote:	Klostersgirl
	I wonder if anyone could give me any advice on how to handle a situation which arose recently. My son is in the first year of the Sek. During the morning break a boy in his class came over and punched him on the arm. My son gave chase to this boy and grabbed him by the hood of his jacket. Pretty normal playground activity for boys aged 13/14. However that evening the other child rang my son and said that the hood of his jacket was damaged and that my son would have to pay for it. The boy's mother was in the background but did not come to the 'phone nor did she ask to speak to me. My son said that he would talk to his parents about the matter. I told my son to apologise for the damage at school the next day and tell the boy that his mother or father could ring us to discuss. The following day the boy said that it was up to us to call his mother and so we sent a brief written note stating that we were aware that accidental damage had been caused to an item of the boy's clothing following an unprovoked attack on our son and that if the parents thought there was anything further to discuss they could ring us. We heard nothing. Tonight, some 3 weeks later, the boy rang and spoke to me (again his mother was in the background but refused to come to the 'phone). I said that we preferred it if one of his parents discussed the matter with my husband (due to my language ability) but explained that my husband was not at home as he was with clients. I said the boy's mother or father could call us on Monday. We then got into a protracted wrangle about who should ring who, ending with me stating that I simply would not discuss the matter with a child. During the conversation the boy told me that the jacket was brand new and cost CHF 400. Having been at a school visit day today and seeing the boy in question, I rather rudely told him that he didn't look like he wore clothes costing this sort of amount. He said that the jacket was a "windstopper" and assured me that this was the cost. Naturally, I don't want my son damaging other people's property but am really unsure of how to handle this. I find it very odd that the other boy's parents won't get involved and expect me (or more accurately my son) to hand over CHF 400. Obviously I can ask them to produce a receipt and we need to check whether we have accidental damage liability insurance for our kids - a question the other boy asked me. We are new to the area and I don't want to create bad feeling with other parents and obviously don't want any backlash at school for my son. On the other hand another boy told me that this family are weirdos and that he once had to pay CHF 5 when he damaged a buckle on this kid's belt. Any advice or opinion would be gratefully received. Thanks in advance.

PJSleep · #**135** 20.03.2010, 20:13

	Quote:	the_clangers
	I have just realised that all you people who keep insisting that the child should speak on his own behalf are absolutely correct. Brian.

no insisting on this end.
pointing out a difference in culture.
there are many options by way of remedying the situation.

no children no piper.
if you have them they cost money.
only 100% of the time.
give the kid the money and let him work it off.
its an option.

it 'should' be accounted for that we are not from switzerland?
cultural melting pot.
all for one and one for all?
each accounting for the 'others' cultural leanings?
on what planet would that be?

think muslim place of worship...

its starts with and ends with: we live in switzerland.
all friggen bets are off.
make peace with it and enjoy.

Dougal's Breakfast · #**136** 20.03.2010, 20:14

	Quote:	PJSleep
	no insisting on this end. pointing out a difference in culture. there are many options by way of remedying the situation. no children no piper. if you have them they cost money. only 100% of the time. give the kid the money and let him work it off. its an option. it 'should' be accounted for that we are not from switzerland? cultural melting pot. all for one and one for all? each accounting for the 'others' cultural leanings? on what planet would that be? think muslim place of worship... its starts with and ends with: we live in switzerland. all friggen bets are off. make peace with it and enjoy.

Wow! I never expected to see a poem in this thread!

EF is becoming awfully cultured these days...

PJSleep · #**137** 20.03.2010, 20:15

	Quote:	nickatbasel
	Erm...so the other kid attacked your son. Your son defended himself. The other kid got some clothing torn in the scuffle... Cheers, Nick

sorry who was attacked?
who was defending himself?
what scuffle?

PJSleep · #**138** 20.03.2010, 20:16

	Quote:	Dougal's Breakfast
	Wow! I never expected to see a poem in this thread! EF is becoming awfully cultured these days...

bite me.

i mean that in the nicest possible no offense intended way mind you...

velocolo · #**139** 20.03.2010, 20:20

Perhpas I'm being obtuse here, but Klostersgirl, it seems if you would put half the effort into resolving this with the parents of the other child, as you have posting on this thread, the matter would be solved by now.

What am I missing?

Phos · #**140** 20.03.2010, 20:27

There are all kinds of ridiculous advice here, some leaning on beating up the kid. I might as well throw a ridiculous advise out.

Perhaps the poor kid is just freaked out to tell his parents what had happened. Perhaps the kid is afraid of getting his butt whipped at home. No need to create animosity with the kid. Cut the kid some slack.

One thing I should point out- When I was a kid that age, I made sure I settled my scores one way or another. Mature thinking at 13? Buahaha. You better hope this kid isn't like that.