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  #181  
Old 14.01.2013, 19:06
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Re: General thoughts in Switzerland toward non-vaccinating families

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And also check your mass hysteria history, the swine flu (H1N1) was touted as being the next Black Death back in 2009, it caused governments to contract drug companies to manufacture vaccines to cover the entire population. Here in Switzerland, Novartis manufactured Focetria and GlaxoSmithKline created Pandemrix. And what happened? A severe increase in narcolepsy amongst those that took the shots.

http://www.seite3.ch/Narkolepsie+Die...86/detail.html

Believe what you want. There is no right, there is no wrong, it's just how you judge something and if you feel that it works for you, then go sleep easier. Because you'll never know how the alternative would have panned out for you.
Actually, there is a RIGHT and a WRONG, the trouble is that some believe interests are getting in the way. Just to be clear, the latest theory on the Pandemrix vaccine linked the trouble to the adjuvant because an adjuvanted flu vaccine has not been thoroughly tested in a healthy population. AFAIK, the Pandemrix vaccine was rolled out for "limited clinical trials" in all countries due to the addition of the adjuvant (since it was so difficult to grow the vaccine). That's why many people did not get the vaccine despite the cr*p healthcare workers were spouting.

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True. I don't agree with vaxxing for chickenpox- it's just not necessary (unlike polio, MMR, DTaP, hep, etc.)
It eliminates the risk of shingles...

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It's my opinion and I don't think a twelve year old girl needs to be vaccinated against HPV for a STD or cervical cancer, especially with new vaccines on the market that have not been adequately tested and have had terrible results as well. However, this is my opinion, and anyone else is more than welcome to do as they please. In addition, chicken pox "needs" to be vaccinated against because "it is so common."
My mistake, I had not realised sexual purity was du rigeur again (of course, only in women) and Zurich had morphed into Iran.
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  #182  
Old 14.01.2013, 22:27
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Re: General thoughts in Switzerland toward non-vaccinating families

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Fair enough. I have trouble conceiving of that, actually- EVERYONE was exposed by the time they hit grade 7 where I grew up
I've managed to make it to my mid-30s without ever having it (that I know of), and with numerous childhood friends who did get it (in hindisght, my parents clearly did try to get me infected, it just never happened).
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  #183  
Old 14.01.2013, 22:34
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Re: General thoughts in Switzerland toward non-vaccinating families

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I've managed to make it to my mid-30s without ever having it (that I know of), and with numerous childhood friends who did get it (in hindisght, my parents clearly did try to get me infected, it just never happened).
Amazing. I was infected so young I was on call as the 'chickenpox friend' who could come keep the others company while they were down
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  #184  
Old 14.01.2013, 22:41
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My father lived to 81 (he died in 2007), without ever contracting either chicken pox or mumps. When we had these as kids, he was away on business, lucky for him.
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  #185  
Old 14.01.2013, 22:43
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Re: General thoughts toward non-vaccinating families

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No, it would be irresponsible of me to give my children vaccines knowing that they permanently disabled me and would likely do the same to them. Would you knowingly harm your children or somebody else that you love?

And, in fact, it's people who are vaccinated who more commonly infect others with diseases - by shedding. Flumist, the nasal spray flu vaccine, is made of live viruses so every time the recipient exhales, sneezes, coughs, or speaks, they are sending live flu viruses into the air. Smart. And there have been many cases here in the States of disease outbreaks which originated from recently vaccinated children who didn't practice good hygiene and spread the live viruses to their classmates. Interestingly, it's the non-vaccinated kids who are usually strong enough to fight the disease naturally, and are fine throughout the whole outbreak while the vaccinated children with impaired immune systems succumb to illness.

What is it with assuming that because I'm American, I will sue people like there is no tomorrow?! Is that the general assumption about Americans? That we're all just waiting for an excuse to take somebody to court?! It's absolutely ridiculous!
I say this as someone who delayed vaccinating her son for the many reasons you share but....

That doesn't even make sense.

While I understand your personal issues related to your health and vaccinations, you have no clue how these would affect your children, unless there was some predisposition in your or your husband's family to illness correlated to all vaccination (is there? You don't say so) and a medical professional has advised you against it. Also, vaccinating isn't like going to the store and choosing pad thai over sushi because of the chemicals found in salmon could negatively affect this or that. Polio, rubella and HPV is some serious sh!t. I would tell this to you on the Mothering message board, in person, or here.

Study after study after study (funded by Big Pharma or otherwise) has confirmed the benefits of vaccinations and unless you are completely dedicated in a full-time capacity to reading the hard literature on this topic, I refuse to believe you are really an expert on the issue. I read journal articles for a living and even I can't wrap my head around the language and numbers a lot of scientific papers.

That being said...

There is a large cohort of skepticism here in Switzerland that mentions the same myths and isolated incidents you share when you ask them why they don't inoculate their children. I'm sure, like in the US, you will find people who share your concerns and can bounce ideas off of.

Good luck with your move and relocation.
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  #186  
Old 14.01.2013, 22:52
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Re: General thoughts in Switzerland toward non-vaccinating families

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Fair enough. I have trouble conceiving of that, actually- EVERYONE was exposed by the time they hit grade 7 where I grew up
Not me. And by all accounts not for want of my mother trying to get me exposed. Had the vaccine a few years ago when there was some going around our child's KG.
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  #187  
Old 14.01.2013, 22:55
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Hats off to all your chicken pox-escapees- I stand corrected, and slightly pockmarked
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  #188  
Old 14.01.2013, 22:57
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Hats off to all your chicken pox-escapees- I stand corrected, and slightly pockmarked
Maybe I was one of those tough kids who doesn't need vaccination... Or something...
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Old 14.01.2013, 23:04
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Maybe I was one of those tough kids who doesn't need vaccination... Or something...
Your leukocytes were beating the virus for its lunch money while everyone else was getting sick.

Last edited by Occasional_Canadian; 14.01.2013 at 23:04. Reason: '
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Old 15.01.2013, 00:24
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

To: american mama

Immunization is not compulsory in most Swiss cantons, including Kanton Bern. Only four cantons have mandatory vaccines: Fribourg, Neuchâtel, Tessin and Geneva.

In German-speaking part of Switzerland (Deutschschweiz) less children receive the immunizations than in French speaking part (Romandie) or Italian-speaking part (Ticino/Moesano).
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Old 15.01.2013, 00:38
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

I don't think my daughters need the HPV shots at such a young age. They are 9 and 12 and are not supposed to be sexually active anytime soon. Therefore me and my wife are opposed to the HPV and HBV vaccines on moral grounds. We also have concerns about their efficacy and safety. Also many doctors are reluctant to recommend these vaccines to their patients. I am not against immunization. Both my daughters were immunized against diphtheria, tetanus, MMR, Chickenpox, tuberculosis (BCG)...
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  #192  
Old 15.01.2013, 08:49
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

As I understand it, and I am not a health care professional, the HPV vaccine is most effective if given before exposure to the viruses (they are four of them). It makes sense to me, therefore, to give it before children become sexually active.

I don't see how morals come into it.
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  #193  
Old 15.01.2013, 09:55
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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As I understand it, and I am not a health care professional, the HPV vaccine is most effective if given before exposure to the viruses (they are four of them). It makes sense to me, therefore, to give it before children become sexually active.

I don't see how morals come into it.
Maybe they cannot believe that the children would become sexually active in their teenage years, so getting it at age 12 isn't necessary? No one can say for sure when one will become sexually active, so I think getting it young makes sense. Many, many girls have their first sexual experiences between 14 - 17, and keeping your head in the sand thinking it won't be your daughter might not be the most realistic, like it or not...

BTW, do the girls need to have started menstruating before they can get the vaccine?
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  #194  
Old 15.01.2013, 10:24
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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As I understand it, and I am not a health care professional, the HPV vaccine is most effective if given before exposure to the viruses (they are four of them). It makes sense to me, therefore, to give it before children become sexually active.

I don't see how morals come into it.
That's correct (although at the last count there were over 100 HPV types identified, but 2 cause something like 65-75% of all cervical cancers - data from IARC-ICE 2006, but try here http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monogr...ono100B-11.pdf). BUT 95% of cervical cancers are HPV positive.

A simple explanation is that how HPV results in cervical cancer is a long process over time, over which the body's immune system gradually becomes used to the HPV antigens. Each time an infected cell is discovered, the body's immune system mounts a weaker response, because of the type of immune reaction the body uses.This means that eventually HPV-infected cells (which mean the virus' oncogenes are introduced into the host cells) develop into full blown cancer. This is a simplified explanation, but fundamentally vaccination means that the body's immune system is more able to resist viral DNA persistence from infection.

Gardasil protects against 4 types of HPV virus: 16, 18, 6 and 11 (the later two are involved in other STD-related genitourinary cancers).

Cervarix only type 16 and 18.

The morals come into it* when one or all of the following comes into play:
  • people believe that nobody has sex before they are married
  • giving a child a vaccine makes them a slut
  • their daughter would never have sex
  • STDs are punishment from God... or something.
Given that HPV can be picked up almost anywhere, the assumption that many make, which is to say that HPV is an STD due to promescuity is missguided. Witness the millions of women who have annual PAP smears.

The argument for vaccinating both boys and girls is pretty compelling IMO, given that cervical cancer is in effect a disease that men are the ones spreading it around...

For completeness, the other cancers linked to HPV 16/18 types alone are (number approximate from a presentation by Harald zur Hausen, Deutsches Krebsforschungszentrum:
  • vulva carcinoma (10-50%)
  • penile carcinoma (10-50%)
  • vaginal carcinoma (50%)
  • anal and perianal cancers (70%)
  • oral cavity and tonsils (25%)
  • nail bed (70%)
I'll leave you to work out the mechanics of the last two...

*I know your comment was rhetorical.

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BTW, do the girls need to have started menstruating before they can get the vaccine?
No.
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  #195  
Old 15.01.2013, 11:01
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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...me and my wife are opposed to the HPV and HBV vaccines on moral grounds. ...
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I don't see how morals come into it.
I can, kind of. I don't have kids, but if I did I would like to think I'd raise them with some common sense. That would include discussions about carefully choosing sexual partners. So the moral side of me says, ok if my kids choose wisely and are not promiscuous themselves or with promiscuous partners, all should be okay and no vaccine needed. BUT

I realize my kids will be human, which means they might make some unwise or hasty decisions. If there's a way for me to protect them I should seriously consider it - right?

That said, I am not yet convinced these new HPV vaccines are 100% safe. They haven't been widespread for long enough and many of the kids that have received them are not yet full adult age. We just don't know what other issues could crop up a few decades down the road. Geez it's tough to be a parent.
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Old 15.01.2013, 11:21
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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So the moral side of me says, ok if my kids choose wisely and are not promiscuous themselves or with promiscuous partners, all should be okay and no vaccine needed.
What has promiscuity got to do with it? You can catch a disease through one encounter. Or are you saying your kids, and those they marry, will be virgins until their wedding night? Good luck
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I realize my kids will be human, which means they might make some unwise or hasty decisions. If there's a way for me to protect them I should seriously consider it - right?
Yep. Although many would call those decisions "life" rather than "unwise or hasty".
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Old 15.01.2013, 11:29
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Despite having been exposed to chickenpox, I never had it. my brother got it in his early twenties and was very very sick. My daughter had it when she was under two and I still didn't get it.

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Old 15.01.2013, 11:52
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Despite having been exposed to chickenpox, I never had it. my brother got it in his early twenties and was very very sick. My daughter had it when she was under two and I still didn't get it.

You might have had a very mild case. My two year old had four pox total on one hand, and we would never have known it was chicken pox except we had to remove her from the Kinderkrippe and have her examined by a doctor (they were having an outbreak of hand-foot-mouth and were worried she had that instead). My four year old either had an even milder case with no pox or didn't catch it. Even blood tests to check antibody levels aren't perfect-I had it as a child (for sure) and come up as negative now.
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Old 15.01.2013, 11:53
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Despite having been exposed to chickenpox, I never had it. my brother got it in his early twenties and was very very sick. My daughter had it when she was under two and I still didn't get it.

It's very possible you did get it and just not break out in spots - as is the case with me. Both of my parents said I never had it when I was little so I've been so cautious around children that have it. I needed to have some special bloodwork done and was tested for the virus, and sure enough it's in my body. I asked the Dr about it and that's what she told me. Happens quite a bit apparently.
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Old 15.01.2013, 12:26
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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... or with promiscuous partners
That's awfully hard to tell, especially when you count THEIR partners, and their partner's partners, and so on... not even considering that they could have been molested or raped (or otherwise exposed) but not have symptoms.

Disease transmission isn't terribly discriminating when it comes to morality, but it really doesn't like immunization.
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