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Old 15.01.2013, 12:36
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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What has promiscuity got to do with it? You can catch a disease through one encounter. Or are you saying your kids, and those they marry, will be virgins until their wedding night? Good luck
Yep. Although many would call those decisions "life" rather than "unwise or hasty".
Adrian thanks for your thoughts.

This is a case of me not stating what I think very clearly or very well. Let me try again. I can kind of see the moral side of the argument, even though I don't share it.

I tried to give examples of how I can see people assuming if their kids are not promiscuous or if they choose partners wisely then there would be no need. I am not so naive as to think my kids would be virgins until their wedding night. And yes, we all make life choices - some of which are unwise but we learn from them, and many of which are hasty.

Is that any clearer? Somehow as I re-read it doesn't sound much better.
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Old 15.01.2013, 12:37
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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What's with the groan, OC?
Refresh your browser It was an accidental click, removed when I saw it.
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  #203  
Old 15.01.2013, 12:46
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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I can, kind of. I don't have kids, but if I did I would like to think I'd raise them with some common sense. That would include discussions about carefully choosing sexual partners. So the moral side of me says, ok if my kids choose wisely and are not promiscuous themselves or with promiscuous partners, all should be okay and no vaccine needed. BUT

I realize my kids will be human, which means they might make some unwise or hasty decisions. If there's a way for me to protect them I should seriously consider it - right?

That said, I am not yet convinced these new HPV vaccines are 100% safe. They haven't been widespread for long enough and many of the kids that have received them are not yet full adult age. We just don't know what other issues could crop up a few decades down the road. Geez it's tough to be a parent.
I am going to lose my fool mind.

Vaccinations especially the HPV vac, go through years and years of vigorous testing before being mass produced.

Carolos R explained it better above but just so our knowledge bombs can be more eye-opening...

The ONLY cohort in the world to not have any known cases of HPV are nuns. The minute your child is sexually active in any way s/he is exposed or can expose someone to HPV. It's not an issue of morality to vaccinate them, it's an issue of public health.
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  #204  
Old 15.01.2013, 14:31
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Refresh your browser It was an accidental click, removed when I saw it.
Thanks, and I edited my post accordingly.

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...Vaccinations especially the HPV vac, go through years and years of vigorous testing before being mass produced...
Sorry lulu but this argument falls flat for me when it comes to all sorts of medicines, not just vaccines. How many times have we seen the next great miracle cure, only to have it later recalled due to horrible side effects and/or deaths? The HPV vaccine probably has undergone extensive testing, but have the human subjects been followed for 20 or 30 years to see if it had any long-term negative effect? I honestly don't know. Many medicines are tested for a few years at best and it is only much later we see the negatives come out. Drug companies are under increasing pressure to come up with vaccines or cures for everything, and sometimes what they come up with isn't perfect.

Now, I am not saying all medicines are bad. Some are certainly useful and have no long-term harmful effects. But we each must do our own research and come to our own conclusions.
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Old 15.01.2013, 14:33
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Medical science does more good than harm!
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  #206  
Old 15.01.2013, 15:46
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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The HPV vaccine probably has undergone extensive testing, but have the human subjects been followed for 20 or 30 years to see if it had any long-term negative effect? I honestly don't know.
If you do the maths, you'll know the answer: no. The vaccines haven't been around long enough.
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Old 15.01.2013, 16:02
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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You might have had a very mild case. My two year old had four pox total on one hand, and we would never have known it was chicken pox except we had to remove her from the Kinderkrippe and have her examined by a doctor (they were having an outbreak of hand-foot-mouth and were worried she had that instead). My four year old either had an even milder case with no pox or didn't catch it. Even blood tests to check antibody levels aren't perfect-I had it as a child (for sure) and come up as negative now.
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It's very possible you did get it and just not break out in spots - as is the case with me. Both of my parents said I never had it when I was little so I've been so cautious around children that have it. I needed to have some special bloodwork done and was tested for the virus, and sure enough it's in my body. I asked the Dr about it and that's what she told me. Happens quite a bit apparently.
I know for sure because of the two pregnancies that I am also not immune against measles. Despite having had the shot between the two pregnancies. It seems the virus doesn't stick on me.
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  #208  
Old 15.01.2013, 17:03
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Sorry lulu but this argument falls flat for me when it comes to all sorts of medicines, not just vaccines. How many times have we seen the next great miracle cure, only to have it later recalled due to horrible side effects and/or deaths?
Compared to the number of times the treatment has worked very well? Not many.
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  #209  
Old 15.01.2013, 17:34
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Sorry lulu but this argument falls flat for me when it comes to all sorts of medicines, not just vaccines. How many times have we seen the next great miracle cure, only to have it later recalled due to horrible side effects and/or deaths? The HPV vaccine probably has undergone extensive testing, but have the human subjects been followed for 20 or 30 years to see if it had any long-term negative effect? I honestly don't know. Many medicines are tested for a few years at best and it is only much later we see the negatives come out. Drug companies are under increasing pressure to come up with vaccines or cures for everything, and sometimes what they come up with isn't perfect.

Now, I am not saying all medicines are bad. Some are certainly useful and have no long-term harmful effects. But we each must do our own research and come to our own conclusions.
Too right -we've set our laundry room up as a lab.

We're using the tumble-drier as a fume extraction cabinet, the washing machine as a centrifuge and the ironing board is doubling as an operating table so we can operate on the neighbourhood cats and dogs (I hope the neighbours don't mind too much but it's all in the name of research).


It's also a bit difficult to conduct long term experiments as we're not really supposed to use the laundry room on Sundays but we sometimes nip down there (the monkeys get a bit edgy if they haven't eaten for a couple of days).

We're getting close to clinical trials and our youngest child has kind of agreed to take part (we didn't go into the details but a bribe of ice cream seemed to be the deal maker).

Conclusion so far: it's more difficult than we thought and we need more cats and dogs (and monkeys).

We'll probably need more children too so my wife and I will continue the breeding programme.
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  #210  
Old 16.01.2013, 15:59
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Adrian thanks for your thoughts.

This is a case of me not stating what I think very clearly or very well. Let me try again. I can kind of see the moral side of the argument, even though I don't share it.

I tried to give examples of how I can see people assuming if their kids are not promiscuous or if they choose partners wisely then there would be no need. I am not so naive as to think my kids would be virgins until their wedding night. And yes, we all make life choices - some of which are unwise but we learn from them, and many of which are hasty.

Is that any clearer? Somehow as I re-read it doesn't sound much better.
You're kidding right? "choos[ing] partners wisely..."

HPV is quite prevalent in the population. Something like 60+% of the population has had various HPV infections. Most of the 120 types are not tested for unless the person develops a cancer (in order to treat the source infection at that point). This includes penile cancer in men.

Why is antibiotic resistant gonorrhea on the rise? Gee, maybe because nobody bothers to get themselves tested for a highly infectious asymptomatic disease that can cause infertility and a host of other complications down the line?

In conclusion, while promiscuity can increase the risk of infection, not preventing an STD or getting tested and treated-- no matter how prudish, frigid, religious or shy the infection-carrier is -- would increase the risk of spreading the infection!
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  #211  
Old 16.01.2013, 17:25
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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You're kidding right? "choos[ing] partners wisely..."
CKL, please read my updated post at the top of the page. I tried to clarify what I meant.
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  #212  
Old 16.01.2013, 23:13
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

i havent gone through the whole discussion, but i know some people decide against vaccination because they think the odds of contracting a disease is small and not worth the risk of getting "poison" in your body

here is the thing, the odds of many diseases are small exactly because they were almost eliminated through rigorous vaccination programs carried out for decades (check smallpox). by not getting yourself or your kid vaccinated, you are cheating the system, and if everybody does that infectious diseases will become more and more common and the odds become too big all of a sudden FOR EVERYBODY!

vaccines are one of the few things that really work well in modern medicine, and infectious diseases are really nasty...think about it
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  #213  
Old 24.01.2013, 21:58
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

@selimhan

You are spot on. In fact, people who do not vaccinate are in fact extending the time that we have to expose our kids to such "poisons". Think of smallpox. We don't have to vaccinate for that anymore because it has been eradicated by vaccination. This should have by now also been true for polio.

I do not know how I would feel if I were one of the very few that had a severe reaction to a vaccine.
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  #214  
Old 04.05.2014, 10:06
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Since the last post on this topic is well over a year old, I thought I'd ask if there is any change in this regard? Is it still not mandatory for children to be vaccinated in order to attend school in Zurich? Thanks in advance for an updated answer :-)
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Old 04.05.2014, 10:30
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

No, there is no mandatory requirement. You can talk to your paediatrician about what they recommend.

You can also look (with your doctor) and make an informed decision about each individual disease and decide which ones might be the highest risk for your child.

Switzerland is currently in high alert for a measles outbreak...they already had one a few year back and a number of children became seriously ill.

I also know of someone whose 12 year old died in 2010 of meningococcal meningitis....in Switzerland....

My kids were not vaccinated for chicken pox and caught it their first winter in Switzerland. The outbreaks seem less as most children are now immunized for chicken pox, but it is definitely still around.

The school will ask you your child's immunisation status, because if there is an outbreak of any of those sort of diseases, it is likely your child will be quarantined according to health department guidelines. We had a measles scare (it was confirmed after one week as not measles) and all non-immunized children were sent home until the all clear was given.
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Old 04.05.2014, 11:43
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

My son was expected to take his immunisation records into school to get his basic jabs, but as they were in the UK format (even though I did write out what page of the book these were on) they couldn't do them. I guess that means that I will need to take both my boys to the doctors for their jabs (even though when I asked the question of the doctor he told me not to worry about it as it would be done at school). Such fun
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Old 04.05.2014, 11:44
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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My kids were not vaccinated for chicken pox and caught it their first winter in Switzerland. The outbreaks seem less as most children are now immunized for chicken pox, but it is definitely still around.
Just as a side note, the chicken pox (Windpocken) vaccination isn't currently standard here unless a child hasn't gotten it by the time he or she is 11 years old (or a bit older). I'm not sure if this has changed over the years.

My older kids (3 and 5) got it over Christmas and it was pretty rotten for one of them. I'm seriously considering vaccinating the third one.
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  #218  
Old 04.05.2014, 11:49
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Most if the kids I work with have had chiclet pox immunisations, even though it's not on the official schedule.

Our paediatrician and i had to try to meld the Australian and Swiss system lists to decide what would be needed.

My youngest just had one for tick encephalitis, which is not on the australian list as we do not have that disease.
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Old 04.05.2014, 14:22
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Most if the kids I work with have had chiclet pox immunisations, even though it's not on the official schedule.

Our paediatrician and i had to try to meld the Australian and Swiss system lists to decide what would be needed.

My youngest just had one for tick encephalitis, which is not on the australian list as we do not have that disease.
That's funny, we keep hearing that the vaccine isn't very effective and the worse course for older kids/ teens is not worth risking. Over here, the under seven crowd is pretty much universally unvaccinated. I'd say it is a regional thing, but obviously not! Anyway, good to know that doctors are willing to do the extra jab.
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  #220  
Old 04.05.2014, 17:26
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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That's funny, we keep hearing that the vaccine isn't very effective and the worse course for older kids/ teens is not worth risking. Over here, the under seven crowd is pretty much universally unvaccinated. I'd say it is a regional thing, but obviously not! Anyway, good to know that doctors are willing to do the extra jab.
Our kids have all the recommended immunizations - but I honestly have never even heard of a chicken pox vaccine
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