Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #241  
Old 21.03.2015, 15:37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zürich
Posts: 349
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 258 Times in 155 Posts
ThomasSSS has earned the respect of manyThomasSSS has earned the respect of manyThomasSSS has earned the respect of many
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Your children will have life long immunity against chicken pox. But if they were immunized, they will need a life time of boosters. Interesting, isn't it.

...
The disease known as shingles is more painful than booster shots. Interesting isn't it.

Seriously though. If you want to debate the merits of one particular vaccine, fine. Vaccines do trade a risk of complications for a reduced risk of the disease, both for your kid and the kids around him. Just make sure your statistics are right.

In general though, vaccines are one of the most effective and successful public health tools, and vague fear mongering on this subject can kill. E.g., measles caused 400 deaths per day worldwide in 2013, but essentially none in the US. The historic high vaccination rate provided a herd immunity. But in areas it has become fashionable to not vaccinate, and this has lead to the ongoing Disneyland measles outbreak.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank ThomasSSS for this useful post:
  #242  
Old 21.03.2015, 21:01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: St Elsewhere
Posts: 332
Groaned at 16 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 314 Times in 150 Posts
Brass427 has earned the respect of manyBrass427 has earned the respect of manyBrass427 has earned the respect of many
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
The disease known as shingles is more painful than booster shots. Interesting isn't it.

Seriously though. If you want to debate the merits of one particular vaccine, fine. Vaccines do trade a risk of complications for a reduced risk of the disease, both for your kid and the kids around him. Just make sure your statistics are right.

In general though, vaccines are one of the most effective and successful public health tools, and vague fear mongering on this subject can kill. E.g., measles caused 400 deaths per day worldwide in 2013, but essentially none in the US. The historic high vaccination rate provided a herd immunity. But in areas it has become fashionable to not vaccinate, and this has lead to the ongoing Disneyland measles outbreak.
Vaccines save a whole lot more lives than they allegedly end. Anyone not vaccinating their children because of some long since-debunked 'scientific' study is being very negligent.

My elderly in-laws recently got the shingles vaccine. It will not prevent shingles but it makes a very unpleasant sickness somewhat more tolerable.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Brass427 for this useful post:
  #243  
Old 21.03.2015, 21:32
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: here
Posts: 3,534
Groaned at 51 Times in 42 Posts
Thanked 3,548 Times in 1,804 Posts
glowjupiter has a reputation beyond reputeglowjupiter has a reputation beyond reputeglowjupiter has a reputation beyond reputeglowjupiter has a reputation beyond reputeglowjupiter has a reputation beyond reputeglowjupiter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

I believe kids should get vaccinated if they are young, no questions asked. At 16+ they should decide on their own if they want vaccinations or not, of course with parents' ability to tell them what they think would be best and the doctors' professional (!) description of pros and cons of vaxes.

As for the influenza vax which is discussed every year, I don't see the necessity to get it if one is reasonably healthy and not in a danger zone (infants, elderly, pregnant, immunocompromised, people ill with certain chronic diseases, medical carer, living in a nursing home).

People definitely should quit the unfounded fear-mongering about certain illnesses being linked to vaccinations without having medical proof for their claims - the resulting refusal of many people to vaccinate their kids can have devastating consequences.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank glowjupiter for this useful post:
  #244  
Old 23.03.2015, 09:52
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 8,284
Groaned at 107 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 14,178 Times in 5,014 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Your children will have life long immunity against chicken pox. But if they were vaccinated, they will need a life time of boosters. Interesting, isn't it?

...
But not life-long immunity against shingles. I should know; I was hospitalised with shingles several years ago and spent 3 days in isolation in an infectious diseases unit on IV antivirals.

Just please stop with your ignorant, pseudoscientific, scaremongering nonsense.
Reply With Quote
The following 13 users would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
  #245  
Old 23.03.2015, 09:57
Occasional_Canadian's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dubi
Posts: 632
Groaned at 23 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 1,310 Times in 480 Posts
Occasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
But not life-long immunity against shingles. I should know; I was hospitalised with shingles several years ago and spent 3 days in isolation in an infectious diseases unit on IV antivirals.

Just please stop with your ignorant, pseudoscientific, scaremongering nonsense.
Shingles sucks. I didn't get it so badly, but I did get it (and I had an early, raging, pox-on-the-eyeballs bout of chickenpox as an infant). Still have a hypersensitve patch on my left shoulderblade as a result.

Seconded on the take the woo elsewhere.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Occasional_Canadian for this useful post:
  #246  
Old 23.03.2015, 12:25
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Somewhere over the Alps
Posts: 206
Groaned at 78 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 365 Times in 179 Posts
Uno'sGarden is considered unworthyUno'sGarden is considered unworthyUno'sGarden is considered unworthyUno'sGarden is considered unworthy
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
But not life-long immunity against shingles. I should know; I was hospitalised with shingles several years ago and spent 3 days in isolation in an infectious diseases unit on IV antivirals.

Just please stop with your ignorant, pseudoscientific, scaremongering nonsense.

Why did you get shingles? Were you under stressed? Were you taking medication that weakens your immune system? Reactivation of the virus is highly depended on your own immune system, you know that, don't you??

Now, since you are a scientist, why are not asking the question that everyone should be asking: "Where are the studies, the published-peer reviewed papers, on the influence of current pediatric vaccines schedule in primates?". And if done, were there any neurodevelopment changes? THE vaccine companies have not published any of that. Yet, we blindly trust them.

Since the start of mass vaccination programs, there is a rise of neurological disorders - ADD, autism, convulsion, paralysis, epilepsy, Gullain Barre Syndrome, etc etc etc. Many parents, scientists, doctors, that are able to think outside the box, are asking: is there a relationship of vaccinations to all these neurological diseases?

The vaccine companies and Monsanto have lied to the public, to the farmers, to doctors, etc.

Together, Vaccines and GMO crops are destroying our health and our soil. Our children and our grandchildren's future are at stake.

Fortunately, many doctors and scientists, are now asking these very questions, and are going out in public giving lectures about their findings. And of course, they are mobbed and ridiculed by the Pharma/Agri trolls...


VACCINES and GMO are a case of boiling frogs...




__________________
"And by the way, it's (geo-engineering) not really a moral hazard, it's more like free riding on our grandkids." Dr. David Keith http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Uno'sGarden for this useful post:
The following 5 users groan at Uno'sGarden for this post:
  #247  
Old 23.03.2015, 12:27
baboon's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 2,461
Groaned at 73 Times in 64 Posts
Thanked 2,924 Times in 1,459 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
"Where are the studies, the published-peer reviewed papers, on the influence of current pediatric vaccines schedule in primates?".
You mean exactly those studies you dismiss when they substantiate that homeopathy is useless?
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank baboon for this useful post:
This user groans at baboon for this post:
  #248  
Old 23.03.2015, 12:37
baboon's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 2,461
Groaned at 73 Times in 64 Posts
Thanked 2,924 Times in 1,459 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Since the start of mass vaccination programs, there is a rise of neurological disorders - ADD, autism....
Now here's another thing. No-one knows if the autism rate has changed over the years. Sure there is an increase in diagnosis but that does not confirm any increase in prevalence.

You might be interest to learn that the autism diagnosis rate in the USA increased 30% from 2012 to 2014. Do you realy want to claim that increase is caused by increased vaccination?
Reply With Quote
The following 10 users would like to thank baboon for this useful post:
  #249  
Old 23.03.2015, 12:48
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Was Belgium now Neuchâtel
Posts: 8,201
Groaned at 60 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 10,219 Times in 4,911 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Now here's another thing. No-one knows if the autism rate has changed over the years. Sure there is an increase in diagnosis but that does not confirm any increase in prevalence.
Exactly. All the things that are now labelled these day ( autism, ADD etc) have always existed but were just not diagnosed as such.
Children were labelled as 'backward' or naughty and sent to special schools when I was a kid but nowadays would probably be classed as autistic or ADD.

My dad's cousin who was born in the 1920s would so most certainly have been diagnosed as autistic had she been born now. She showed all the classic signs.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post:
  #250  
Old 23.03.2015, 12:57
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 8,284
Groaned at 107 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 14,178 Times in 5,014 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Since the rise in organic food sales, there is a rise of neurological disorders - ADD, autism, convulsion, paralysis, epilepsy, Gullain Barre Syndrome, etc etc etc. Many parents, scientists, doctors, that are able to think outside the box, are asking: is there a relationship of organic produce to all these neurological diseases?

See what I did there?

You really don't have a clue, do you?
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
  #251  
Old 23.03.2015, 12:58
xynth's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 753
Groaned at 37 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,681 Times in 503 Posts
xynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Since the start of mass vaccination programs, there is a rise of neurological disorders - ADD, autism, convulsion, paralysis, epilepsy, Gullain Barre Syndrome, etc etc etc. Many parents, scientists, doctors, that are able to think outside the box, are asking: is there a relationship of vaccinations to all these neurological diseases?
Irrespective of the fact that you haven't linked any actual peer-reviewed studied showing a clear link between vaccinations and the disorders you mention, let's assume there is a link. Even then, many formerly common nasty diseases have been eradicated in the modern world through mass immunization and they are likely being kept at bay by maintaining said immunization. Allow me to just link a very nice picture that illustrates the problem the anti-vaccination crowd poses for everyone:



So to sum it up, if you don't want to get vaccinated that's fine and it's your prerogative as long as neither you nor anyone you are in physical contact with are allowed in the general population. This is so that you do not jeopardize the decades of efforts that health organizations have done (and continue to do).

So, as an un-vaccinated person you are at a higher risk yourself, but at the same time you also contribute extra risk for people who actually did get the vaccines. As such, it is only fair that you pay a higher insurance premium since those of us who have invested into vaccines should not have to bear the costs of this risk you voluntarily take.
Reply With Quote
The following 11 users would like to thank xynth for this useful post:
  #252  
Old 23.03.2015, 13:02
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 8,284
Groaned at 107 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 14,178 Times in 5,014 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Why did you get shingles? Were you under stressed? Were you taking medication that weakens your immune system? Reactivation of the virus is highly depended on your own immune system, you know that, don't you??
None of the above; I got totally pissed-up on Christmas Day and had lesions on my forehead the following morning.

I "got" shingles because I had chickenpox as a kid and the Varicella-Zoster virus remained dormant in the nerve cells until I had become compromised in some way; i.e. i was absolutely shitfaced, and it reactivated.

I also occasionally get a milder form when I get sunburn on my forehead.
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 23.03.2015, 13:03
xynth's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 753
Groaned at 37 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,681 Times in 503 Posts
xynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
See what I did there?

You really don't have a clue, do you?
I really like your post because it highlights the fact that correlation does not imply causation. Yet there are too many people who unwittingly (or maliciously) misuse correlations to imply that there is some connection between otherwise unrelated events.

99.99% of people who died in a car accident have washed their teeth the evening before. There, clearly, modern oral hygiene is a leading cause of car accidents and if only people listened to some failed-doctor-turned-obscure-snake-oil-peddler who profits from fear we could cut down fatalities by a huge margin!

Want more interesting correlations, just go here http://www.tylervigen.com/
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank xynth for this useful post:
  #254  
Old 23.03.2015, 13:16
Ace1's Avatar
A singular modality
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Engelberg & near Basel
Posts: 5,857
Groaned at 167 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 8,898 Times in 3,982 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Since the start of mass vaccination programs, there is a rise of neurological disorders - ADD, autism, convulsion, paralysis, epilepsy, Gullain Barre Syndrome, etc etc etc.
A couple of questions for you (answers below for the hard of thinking):

1. When, do you think, were those various illnesses and syndromes first starting to be recognised and diagnosed?

2. And who, do you think, was it that started to recognise and diagnose them?


Answers:
1. Around about the same time, historically speaking, that mass immunisation programs were first started.

2. The same medical profession that also supported and promoted the immunisation programs.
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 23.03.2015, 13:55
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 6,602
Groaned at 188 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 10,957 Times in 4,526 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Fortunately, many doctors and scientists, are now asking these very questions, and are going out in public giving lectures about their findings. And of course, they are mobbed and ridiculed by the Pharma/Agri trolls...

This Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the one whose mom told him all about the dangers of mercury in vaccinations -- is he one of those doctors and scientists going out in public giving lectures about their findings? Perhaps you could link some of the peer-reviewed, published findings of the doctors and scientists of whom you speak?
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 23.03.2015, 14:25
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy McModface
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,189
Groaned at 50 Times in 44 Posts
Thanked 8,043 Times in 2,943 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Children were labelled as 'backward'
True dat. Since the implementation of mass vaccination, there has been a marked decrease in children diagnosed backward or retarded. Clear proof that vaccines increase intellegence.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mirfield for this useful post:
  #257  
Old 23.03.2015, 14:30
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 6,602
Groaned at 188 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 10,957 Times in 4,526 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
Clear proof that vaccines increase intellegence.
... if not accuracy in spelling.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #258  
Old 23.03.2015, 14:44
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 9,783
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 17,382 Times in 6,646 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

I for one believe that ALL vaccines should be banned and we should return to public health standards of the 1500s.

This belief isn't based on scientic fact but on something I read once on the internet written by somebody with lots of letters after their name, and therefore it had to be correct. Back in the 1500s they didn't have vaccines or GMO food and their life expectency was excellent. Child mortality rates were neglible and there was virtually no disease, and certainly no disabled people or children with autism.

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank dodgyken for this useful post:
  #259  
Old 23.03.2015, 14:52
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Zug
Posts: 656
Groaned at 24 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 749 Times in 339 Posts
xkcd has a reputation beyond reputexkcd has a reputation beyond reputexkcd has a reputation beyond reputexkcd has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
So to sum it up, if you don't want to get vaccinated that's fine and it's your prerogative as long as neither you nor anyone you are in physical contact with are allowed in the general population.
You are missing one point: I also suffered from shingles (not as badly as PaddyG though). Had the varicella immunization already been available when I was a child and had my parents decided against these shots I'd have a major grudge against them today. Uno's Garden seems to miss this (IMHO rather relevant) point in her rage against vaccination.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank xkcd for this useful post:
  #260  
Old 23.03.2015, 14:59
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Was Belgium now Neuchâtel
Posts: 8,201
Groaned at 60 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 10,219 Times in 4,911 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Quote:
View Post
You are missing one point: I also suffered from shingles (not as badly as PaddyG though). Had the varicella immunization already been available when I was a child and had my parents decided against these shots I'd have a major grudge against them today. Uno's Garden seems to miss this (IMHO rather relevant) point in her rage against vaccination.
Why?
The chicken pox vaccine offered to children won't protect you against shingles.
Did you have chicken pox as a child?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wills in Switzerland: avoiding Pflichtteil (Obligatory apportionment) meloncollie Other/general 29 07.03.2013 15:14


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0