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Old 27.03.2015, 14:23
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Hi. I work in a pediatrician practice. This week we had 2 kids with pertussis. Both not immunized. It's not a big deal, they are treated and will get better, but the illness circulates much more and the youngest, too young to be immunized, might have critical complications if they catch it.
48.5 million cases worldwide with about 61,000 deaths. I would regard that as a sufficiently big deal.
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Old 27.03.2015, 14:44
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

I meant not a big deal for those two kids, as they will recover. And that's what parents who are anti-vaccines say : why using your poison, if there's a cure if you catch it !
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Old 27.03.2015, 14:57
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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I meant not a big deal for those two kids, as they will recover. And that's what parents who are anti-vaccines say : why using your poison, if there's a cure if you catch it !
1. The vaccine isn't poison
2. What are the potential side effects of the cure?
3. What is the actual cure rate? 17 deaths in the US in 2001 indicate it is not 100%
4. For this particular disease, how long before the cure becomes ineffective if incidence continues to rise through non-vaccination? Heard of antibiotic resistance?

The vaccine is safe by any reasonable measure (reported severe reactions are so rare it is statistically impossible to say if they are actually down to the vaccine or not). The risk of death from the illness - even if treated - is much higher.
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  #284  
Old 27.03.2015, 15:10
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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1. The vaccine isn't poison
2. What are the potential side effects of the cure?
3. What is the actual cure rate? 17 deaths in the US in 2001 indicate it is not 100%
4. For this particular disease, how long before the cure becomes ineffective if incidence continues to rise through non-vaccination? Heard of antibiotic resistance?

The vaccine is safe by any reasonable measure (reported severe reactions are so rare it is statistically impossible to say if they are actually down to the vaccine or not). The risk of death from the illness - even if treated - is much higher.
I don't think pioutar is saying vaccines are poison, they're pointing out that that is how anti-vaxxer idiots justify not vaccinating.
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  #285  
Old 27.03.2015, 15:26
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Everyone relies on someone to do the thinking for them.
What, like Senepeth, Tenpenny, Humphries, Mercola, Wakefield?

Who is more the fool? The fool, or the fool who follows the fool?
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  #286  
Old 27.03.2015, 15:34
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Oups, my english is really bad, sorry. So to be clear : I'M COMPLETLY PRO VACCINES ! I'm just sharing what some anti-vaccines say. So, Baboon 1) Of course it's not a poison ! 2)As far as I know (i'm just a medical assistant) : usual potential sides effect of antibiotherapy (from a little diarrhea to anaphylacic shock) 3)I don't know the situation in the US. In France during the last years, the deaths of pertussis were all babies. That shows also that anti-vaccines have also a communautary responsibility for the youngest ! Cure rates are very good with grown ups, in good condition ! 4) Don't know. Have a nice week-end !
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Old 27.03.2015, 15:48
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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I meant not a big deal for those two kids, as they will recover. And that's what parents who are anti-vaccines say : why using your poison, if there's a cure if you catch it !
To which the answer is that the risk of damage to the child from whooping cough is considerably greater than the risk of damage from the vaccine.
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  #288  
Old 27.03.2015, 16:23
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

There is now a push to have pertussis vaccination during the third trimester of pregnancy from US Government departments
http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/pregnan...accinated.html

and Australian governments (good on WA on pushing to make it free for pregnant women after Riley's death case)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-1...t-mums/6333544

Not sure if its done here commonly.... I was asking my current gyno in Zurich about this (particularly since there is more awareness about whooping cough in Australia, plus, my Australian GP was recommending me to get it in 3rd trimester) but she said that she didn't recommend ANY vaccinations during any stage of pregnancy and should just get the pertussis vaccination AFTER birth (maybe true for other vaccines, but I was only concerned about pertussis as its the main one I'm not up-to-date with).

I'm not sure whether she's aware of these recommendations as I understand hving pertussis vaccine during 3rd trimester is a new thing... would have thought it was her job to know latest recommendations... !!

Anyone else have had this conversation with their gyno/obstetrician??
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  #289  
Old 27.03.2015, 17:07
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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There is now a push to have pertussis vaccination during the third trimester of pregnancy from US Government departments
http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/pregnan...accinated.html

and Australian governments (good on WA on pushing to make it free for pregnant women after Riley's death case)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-1...t-mums/6333544

Not sure if its done here commonly.... I was asking my current gyno in Zurich about this (particularly since there is more awareness about whooping cough in Australia, plus, my Australian GP was recommending me to get it in 3rd trimester) but she said that she didn't recommend ANY vaccinations during any stage of pregnancy and should just get the pertussis vaccination AFTER birth (maybe true for other vaccines, but I was only concerned about pertussis as its the main one I'm not up-to-date with).

I'm not sure whether she's aware of these recommendations as I understand hving pertussis vaccine during 3rd trimester is a new thing... would have thought it was her job to know latest recommendations... !!

Anyone else have had this conversation with their gyno/obstetrician??
I gave birth to my 3rd child last June, and my OB strongly recommanded I get the pertussis booster during my third trimester (which I did).
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Old 28.03.2015, 10:30
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Hi,

I currently live in Canada with my Wife and 10 month old baby. Vaccinations are mandatory and required in Canada as in many other countries, however if you do not wish to vaccinate your kids you can fill out Government forms that will exempt you and still be able to put your kids in public schools.

Anyone know any information regarding this Policy in Switzerland and if it varies in each Canton then which Cantons allow exemption?

many thanks.

In Switzerland, no vaccinations are mandatory BUT many vaccinations are heavily recommendable. Like Polio and Tetanus and even the flu. But Kids are allowed into public Schools. In Schools in the Canton of Zürich, all classes regularily go to the mandatory teeth control. If you have a private Dentist as most, you get a report, otherwise they will do the treatment right there. I still remember that I once or twice gave such a Report to Dr Dent Antonini who then checked the matter up'
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Old 28.03.2015, 16:42
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

On the federal level, no vaccination is mandatory, but cantons can require it if they want. In the canton of Geneva, vaccination against diphtheria is now mandatory.
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Old 28.03.2015, 16:52
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Yes completely ! Problem is with risk statistics and probabilities for populations, it's psychologically difficult to apply it to individuals and to avoid own experiences take make rules : my grandmother smoked 50 cigs a day and she lived until 98 years old --> so there's no problem with tobacco ... For me, there's is something very presumptuous of most of antivaccins people : Yes you may have 10 years of study but I far know better than you do ! I would never go go to a pilot of a plane and tell him how he should fly (I am tempted to make a very bad joke ...), why do some people think they know better than specialist of the field ?
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  #293  
Old 28.03.2015, 17:37
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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In Switzerland, no vaccinations are mandatory BUT many vaccinations are heavily recommendable. Like Polio and Tetanus and even the flu. But Kids are allowed into public Schools. In Schools in the Canton of Zürich, all classes regularily go to the mandatory teeth control. If you have a private Dentist as most, you get a report, otherwise they will do the treatment right there. I still remember that I once or twice gave such a Report to Dr Dent Antonini who then checked the matter up'
I had to send proof of my daughters vaccinations to the school and sports department for entry into year one. I have no idea what they would do if she was not vaccinated, but I assume (hope) that they would ban any child not vaccinated (except on medical grounds) from schools during an outbreak of the specific disease. I have no idea why I did not have to provide these details before she started KG though. I also hope that she will not be banned if there is a chickenpox outbreak, because she has no vaccine, but she did have the disease.
She sees the dentist 2 or 3 times a year at KG, I did not know that they would treat her, that is super-cool!
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  #294  
Old 28.03.2015, 17:47
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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On the federal level, no vaccination is mandatory, but cantons can require it if they want. In the canton of Geneva, vaccination against diphtheria is now mandatory.
It is also mandatory in Neuchâtel. I believe that these are the only two cantons which still have mandatory vaccinations. Unvaccinated children can't however be excluded from crèche or schools.

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I had to send proof of my daughters vaccinations to the school and sports department for entry into year one. I have no idea what they would do if she was not vaccinated, but I assume (hope) that they would ban any child not vaccinated (except on medical grounds) from schools during an outbreak of the specific disease. I have no idea why I did not have to provide these details before she started KG though. I also hope that she will not be banned if there is a chickenpox outbreak, because she has no vaccine, but she did have the disease.
She sees the dentist 2 or 3 times a year at KG, I did not know that they would treat her, that is super-cool!

We had to provide proof of vaccination too. I think it's just so they can keep a record of who's vaccinated against what in case there is an outbreak of a certain disease at the school.

The school dentist will only treat children if the parents ( or legal guardians) have given them permission to do so here in Neuchâtel. I don't know if it's the case everywhere but I would hope so.

This link ( in French but I think you can change the language) gives info on the vaccination system here in Switzerland.

http://www.bag.admin.ch/themen/mediz..._JjKbNoKSn6A--
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  #295  
Old 20.04.2015, 14:47
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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What, like Senepeth, Tenpenny, Humphries, Mercola, Wakefield?

Who is more the fool? The fool, or the fool who follows the fool?
"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed."- Mark Twain

In August 2014, Dr. Brian Hooker published in the peer-reviewed scientific journal Translational Neurodegeration showing that African-American boys receiving their first MMR vaccine before 36 months of age are 3.4 times more likely to develop autism versus after 36 months.

This data was from a scientist working at the CDC, Dr. William Thompson, who knew in 2003 that the data showed a higher autism rate among African-American boys receiving the MMR shots.

After more than 10 years of keeping this a secret, Dr. Thompson gave the data to Dr. Hooker, who published it in the above journal. A month after publication, the paper was retracted. Once again, the big players are there to make sure that the public remain confused and lied to.



"Truthful words stand the test of time, but lies are soon exposed."
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  #296  
Old 20.04.2015, 14:55
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

do you think its a cover-up or do you think the original study was faulty?

what's your view of this link:
http://www.publichealth.org/public-a...yths-debunked/
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Old 20.04.2015, 14:57
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

From PubMed

"The Editor and Publisher regretfully retract the article [1] as there were undeclared competing interests on the part of the author which compromised the peer review process. Furthermore, post-publication peer review raised concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis, therefore the Editors no longer have confidence in the soundness of the findings. We apologise to all affected parties for the inconvenience caused."

Papers are restracted for good reasons; poor science mostly, though conflict of interest is also way up there.

I suppose every forum deserves at least one certified, intransigent conspiracy theory loon. Welcome to your new role, UG.
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  #298  
Old 20.04.2015, 15:02
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed."- Mark Twain

"Truthful words stand the test of time, but lies are soon exposed."
I love your use of inappropriate quotes. By "Fools", I assume you are referring to those hang on every word uttered by the likes of Dr. Oz, Foodbabe, Joseph Mercola, Jon Roulac and Natural News etc?
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Old 20.04.2015, 15:19
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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I suppose every forum deserves at least one certified, intransigent conspiracy theory loon. Welcome to your new role, UG.
New? Where have you been?
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Old 20.04.2015, 15:20
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Now, since you are a scientist, why are not asking the question that everyone should be asking: "Where are the studies, the published-peer reviewed papers, on the influence of current pediatric vaccines schedule in primates?". And if done, were there any neurodevelopment changes? THE vaccine companies have not published any of that. Yet, we blindly trust them.
I am a scientist, and I did ask........and I found an answer for you in about 5 minutes:

Curtis et al. Examination of the Safety of Pediatric Vaccine Schedules in a Non-Human Primate Model: Assessments of Neurodevelopment, Learning, and Social Behavior. Environ Health Perspect. 2015 Feb 18. [Epub ahead of print]

BACKGROUND: In the 1990s, the mercury-based preservative, thimerosal, was used in most pediatric vaccines. While there are currently only two thimerosal-containing vaccines (TCVs) recommended for pediatric use, parental perceptions that vaccines pose safety concerns are affecting vaccination rates, particularly in light of the much expanded and more complex schedule in place today.

OBJECTIVES: The objective of this study was to examine the safety of pediatric vaccine schedules in a non-human primate model.

METHODS: We administered vaccines to 6 groups of infant male rhesus macaques (n=12-16/group) using a standardized thimerosal dose where appropriate. Study groups included the recommended 1990s pediatric vaccine schedule, an accelerated 1990s primate schedule with or without the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine, the MMR vaccine only, and the expanded 2008 schedule. We administered saline injections to age-matched control animals (n=16). Infant development was assessed from birth-12 months of age by examining the acquisition of neonatal reflexes, the development of object concept permanence (OCP), computerized tests of discrimination learning, and infant social behavior. Data were analyzed using ANOVAs, multi-level modeling, and survival analyses, where appropriate.

RESULTS: There were no group differences in the acquisition of OCP. During discrimination learning animals receiving TCVs had improved performance on reversal testing, although some of these same animals performed poorer in subsequent learning set testing. Analysis of social and non-social behaviors identified few instances of negative behaviors across the entire infancy period. While some group differences in specific behaviors were reported at 2 months of age, by 12 months all infants, irrespective of vaccination status, had developed the typical repertoire of macaque behaviors.

CONCLUSIONS: This comprehensive five-year, case-control study, which closely examined the effects of pediatric vaccines on early primate development, provided no consistent evidence of neurodevelopmental deficits or aberrant behavior in vaccinated animals.

Link to freely-available fulltext article: http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/1408257/
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