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  #21  
Old 05.06.2007, 22:35
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Dawiz,

I am sorry to say that your negative remark on a particular country was unwarranted … may be you said it without giving a thought as to how it could affect some members … The thread on this subject was oriented towards soliciting / sharing constructive information on vaccination amongst members. If I were in your place, I wouldn’t deviate from the subject.

Ashish



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a teacher in St. Gallen recently died of TB. Also, there have been several cases of Polio in Switzerland last year - all of which were "imported" from India I believe - but still - not getting your Polio shot (actually, a shot isn't even required - the vaccination can be administered orally) is just careless IMHO.

dawiz
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  #22  
Old 05.06.2007, 22:46
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

One thing that would interest me how would you stand with medical insurance if you claimed a large bill for a illness that could have been avoided with a small jab?.

DC
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  #23  
Old 05.06.2007, 23:15
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Ok, I was going to avoid getting involved in this one but here goes...

Firstly, NOT ALL vaccinations contain mercury. Very few do these days. There are different types of vaccines depending. Some work by giving you a small dose of the virus to stimulate your body to produce its own antibodies.

I agree not all vaccines are necessary. I for one would not give a child measles, rather I would let the child just go through it if you like I know sounds harsh but is good to stimulate a natural healthy immune system.

Secondly, there are certain illnesses where the consequence of the illness far outweighs the risk of a vaccine. For example, should a baby girl contract rubella, she will quite likely be sterile as an adult. Would you want that responsibility???

If you are going to get your knickers in a twist about not knowing what information you are receiving from the medical industry being proven as potentially harmful in 5 or 10 years time I would suggest you lock down your house, grow your own vegetables, find somewhere far from civilisation and there live in ease. Doctors and other health care providers work with the current knowledge. We have not yet answered all the questions in life. After all, science is for ever developing and as we find new answers more questions will arise.

Finally I would like to thank those considerate enough to realise that the yearly flu jab actually helps those around you. In the winter public transport is a breeding pool of illnesses. You as a healthy individual may cope just fine but have you thought about those who are immuno-compromised? The aged? People with autoimmune diseases who are far more susceptible to flu's and to whom a simple flu virus can have disastrous consequences?

You talk about making an informed decision but is it really? How much have you informed yourself? Have you discussed which vaccines would be worthwhile with a health care professional? OR have you just read the scaremongering media? Either way, like you said, your kids, your decision but maybe just consider some vaccines which were after all developed for a reason...
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  #24  
Old 05.06.2007, 23:54
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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I have learned from the past that when it comes to issues like vaccination, religion and any topic that has been heavily engrained into the minds of humans it's a lost cause to argue.
This is true, but I'd like to think of science and medicine as something in a different category than religion. Sure, medicine used to be more about religion, but hopefully these days it is more about science.

I didn't study medicine, so I can't claim to have all the answers. However, with my lack of knowledge I am far more likely to defer to someone who knows more than I do, rather than arrogantly presume that person (or an entire group of experts) to be wrong. Sure, the medical community isn't always right, but should that mean we should automatically distrust anything they say?

You are right about people not being convinced no matter what. The only parallel I can draw is with radio frequency - something I do know something about. I'm tired of listening to people banging on about "electrosmog". They have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, zero understanding of the technical issues apart from what they can relate to, which is usually that their microwave cooks food (they probably don't own one, because they think it is far too dangerous).

Would these people actually think of going off and informing themselves about how radio stuff really works before condemning a technology they don't understand as dangerous? Hell no! But it won't stop them "knowing" more than the experts do.

I too think that arguing with people who are largely ignorant on the technical points of a topic is a complete waste of time.

I think one of the big problems with today's society is that it is too easy for everyone to think themselves an expert by visiting websites or reading popular books that try to take complex subjects, which require a lot of background knowledge to understand them properly and package them into what is essentially an opinion.

So I'd like to reserve my opinion until I've gone off and done a degree in immunology. But hang on - even if I had - nobody would listen to me anyway because they "know better"...
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Old 05.06.2007, 23:56
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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I agree not all vaccines are necessary. I for one would not give a child measles, rather I would let the child just go through it if you like I know sounds harsh but is good to stimulate a natural healthy immune system.
Just curious as to your reasoning behind not vaccinating for Measles when it has been know to kill or more accurately the complications it can cause can kill a child. IIRC there was a huge outcry in the UK about this last year when a child died after an outbreak among children who had not been vaccinated.
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  #26  
Old 06.06.2007, 00:06
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Well to be honest, my opinion is based on living in Switzerland. I have little faith in the NHS... I am aware of the consequences of measles, however, I guess I'm influenced by my up bringing. My mother felt that it would be fine for us. I did indeed come down with the measles and survived, but then I was lucky to be here in Zurich at the time with excellent medical care.

But I might think differently if I lived elsewhere, I was simple using it as an example
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  #27  
Old 06.06.2007, 00:12
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Cheers for the clarification, with your occupation I think of you as being in "healthcare" in a way so just wondered why you felt that way. You are so right about the differences between healthcare here & the NHS, I have zero faith in them too.
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  #28  
Old 06.06.2007, 00:20
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

I should have probably clarified that before... I do think that its important for kids to go through some "bugs" eat dirt etc as this will help them stimulate a good healthy immune system. However, like many people have already mentioned, vaccines were developed for a good reason.
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  #29  
Old 06.06.2007, 00:33
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Just curious as to your reasoning behind not vaccinating for Measles when it has been know to kill or more accurately the complications it can cause can kill a child. IIRC there was a huge outcry in the UK about this last year when a child died after an outbreak among children who had not been vaccinated.
I guess the reasoning is probably something along the lines of measles is one of those things that sucks, but 99.9% of people get through it ok. Just because one child dies from it (sometimes it happens), doesn't mean we shouldn't get all up in arms and into a flap about it.

However, when dealing with diseases that aren't so funny and cause much more problems, both for the individual and those they might infect, then the case for vaccination is stronger.

As others have said - each vaccination should be considered separately, because they are not all the same, and the diseases they treat are all different with different issues attached.

One shouldn't simply accept all vaccinations without questioning, just as someone shouldn't automatically dismiss all vaccinations.
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  #30  
Old 06.06.2007, 10:16
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

One shouldn't simply accept all vaccinations without questioning, just as someone shouldn't automatically dismiss all vaccinations.[/quote]


Very wise words,Mark!!And I would like to add ,
'and just as someone should not get in a panic about illnesses and vaccinations'
when hearing and reading stuff in the media.....


As you may all be well aware,scientists etc said we have to expect a mass of ticks,gnats and wasps to name but a few this year as a result of the mild winter.If this really wil be case, I don't know and I think we'll see in autumn.
I live in a high risk area of the tick induced menigitis ( FSME),knowing this, we went very early to get our jabs ( for the first time ever) as we are often out in the nearby forest and meadows .
And my younger kids and I already had the ''pleasure'' of ''nurturing'' one of them tiny beasts in the past two weeks.
Because of the aforementioned scientists reports,there was a sort of mild panic and children in regions where there are NO ticks who reportedly carry the virus were vaccinated in masses as a precaution.........Now these places may have ticks to but not those who carry the virus and they're not a high risk area.

This mass vaccinations caused now a bit of a problem for our region,only last week I had two mums of my younger childrens class mates,telling me, that they had or still have to wait until the pediatrist gets a new delivery of the vaccin as there is currently a shortage because of the above mentioned ''panic''.
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  #31  
Old 06.06.2007, 15:22
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

I understand all the replies that have been made. I guess the only thing I can say is that in my world things are not what they seem. Many of the large TV Networks, Radio stations and News papers, all the media that people get fed information from is controlled by a few elite people whos intentions are not for your well being.

This to me and to more and more people who are realizing the truth is not a conspiracy it is reality. A simple example is health care, now I am speaking in general terms and mostly of US/Canada. We all know that the pharmacutical companies rake in billions of dollars, if there was a healthy society there would be no money for them. This is the truth, another example is the oil. There have been proven and documented technolgies including water fuel cells that would make oil obsolete. Most of these people have been either murdered and thrown in jail for life time.

The media and entertainment unfortunately has many people occupied, if you want to call it a matrix to keep people blind so be it. In Switzerland there is a small community near Thur that are self dependant, their founder discovered a device that generates 100 x the electricity from it's input. I bet many Swiss people don't even know about it

In any case there are so many examples but it is pointless to list them, for people who have a closed mind will refute the facts anyway.

http://www.drcarley.com/

Starts a few pages down with ..... The basic truth that served as

Too much information, too long ... I don't have time to read it. Our lives have been made busy and stressful on purpose. At least you guys are willing to talk about it, here in Canada/US people ignore you and look at you like you should be in the loonie bin lol

-Patrick
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  #32  
Old 06.06.2007, 15:36
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Here is a great video, but again a person who is closed minded and in denial will simply state the video is a "hoax" like the many great videos and evidence of 9/11 being an inside job.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...54679207090010

Regarding Doctors I wanted to state earlier that I am not blaming them, my mother in law is actually a doctor herself and we have had many arguements after we told her we are not vaccinating our child.

The problem is the Docotrs are being misled themselves. It's the education that is the problem. Doctors are taught 2 things, drugs and surgery. The second you go to a doctor one of the first things they do is perscribe a drug. They bandage up the problem, they do not resolve it.

US is becoming a controlled state, ironic how vaccination is mandatory there. More and more violence in kids can be seen at the sametime more and more kids are on anti depressents and other drugs.

Again, I am not fighting anyone here, we all have our own views. If anyone wants more information or on other so called "consipiracy" let me know. I love discussing them, not arguin or fighting them.

Cheers,
-Patrick
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  #33  
Old 06.06.2007, 15:53
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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The media and entertainment unfortunately has many people occupied, if you want to call it a matrix to keep people blind so be it. In Switzerland there is a small community near Thur that are self dependant, their founder discovered a device that generates 100 x the electricity from it's input. I bet many Swiss people don't even know about it
Wow, perpetual motion,

To quote the great Homer Simpson

"Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics"

If I look hard enough, I can find anything I want on the web, all my wildest theories and conspirocies are confirmed.
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  #34  
Old 06.06.2007, 15:54
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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I understand all the replies that have been made. I guess the only thing I can say is that in my world things are not what they seem.
Sorry, can't resist it - what world would this be then? A different one from the rest of us?

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Many of the large TV Networks, Radio stations and News papers, all the media that people get fed information from is controlled by a few elite people whos intentions are not for your well being.
We agree on this point, generally, but there are exceptions, particularly amongst journalists - Robert Frisk for one.

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This to me and to more and more people who are realizing the truth is not a conspiracy it is reality.
The truth according to you?

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A simple example is health care, now I am speaking in general terms and mostly of US/Canada. We all know that the pharmacutical companies rake in billions of dollars, if there was a healthy society there would be no money for them.
But we do, generally, have a healthy society especially when compared to other less wealthy countries. I agree about the pharma's billions but I believe they should be spending their profits on the so called 3rd world and implementing vaccination programs there to irradicate deadly diseases.

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This is the truth, another example is the oil. There have been proven and documented technolgies including water fuel cells that would make oil obsolete. Most of these people have been either murdered and thrown in jail for life time.
Now you are starting to sound a bit bonkers. Name those people please. The water fuel cell thing is fantastic, there is a future, but it's along way from being a commercial possibility.

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The media and entertainment unfortunately has many people occupied, if you want to call it a matrix to keep people blind so be it. In Switzerland there is a small community near Thur that are self dependant, their founder discovered a device that generates 100 x the electricity from it's input. I bet many Swiss people don't even know about it
I guess not. Please tell us about it, maybe in a different thread on altenative energy in Switzerland.

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In any case there are so many examples but it is pointless to list them, for people who have a closed mind will refute the facts anyway.
Who has the closed mind here?

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http://www.drcarley.com/

Starts a few pages down with ..... The basic truth that served as

Too much information, too long ... I don't have time to read it. Our lives have been made busy and stressful on purpose. At least you guys are willing to talk about it, here in Canada/US people ignore you and look at you like you should be in the loonie bin lol

-Patrick

If you can't be arsed to read it, why should we?
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  #35  
Old 06.06.2007, 16:47
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

To bring this back to a more general discussion, I've noticed a few people in this thread express concern about the presence of mercury and other potentially dangerous substances (e.g. formaldehyde) in vaccines. I think it's certainly reasonable to be cautious about taking in some of these foreign substances. However, it's worth keeping in mind that these substances, like most toxins, have a dose effect. That is, their toxicity to a person is proportional to the amount they receive, and over what period of time.

I'll slightly diverge here in order to demonstrate this principle: x-rays (which are similar to the gamma rays associated with nuclear fallout) have a strong dose effect. Brief exposure to high levels of radiation (such as those present following Chernobyl), or long-term, repeated exposure to lower doses (such as a laboratory x-ray technician might receive) are both known to cause a host of health problems, most notably cancer. However, low level exposure at a very low frequency (such as an average person might receive over a lifetime by having occasional diagnostic x-rays) has a negligible effect on overall health. Few people would argue that the health risks of having infrequent x-rays outweigh the benefits: the strength of the dose is not too great, and the duration of exposure is relatively brief. In return, you get medical diagnostic information that can be extremely valuable, and potentially life-saving.

In a similar vein, mercury is known to be poisonous. Those exposed to high levels of mercury through industrial accidents, or constant low levels of mercury over a prolonged period of time (e.g. those who regularly eat fish high in mercury, those who drink contaminated water, or those with mercury fillings) are likely to suffer ill effects from mercury poisoning. However, as in the case of x-rays, the health risk posed by the amount of mercury potentially present in some vaccines, combined with the low duration of exposure (a few needles over a lifetime) makes the health risk from mercury poisoning negligible. This is also true for many of the other substances that may be present in vaccines: they may be known to be dangerous at high levels or with repeated exposure, but pose a very low health risk at the exposure levels associated with vaccination. In return for the very small health risk, you benefit from having a high likelihood of being immune to certain diseases, which may mean the difference between life or death for you or one of your loved ones.

Preventable infectious diseases remain a real health risk for non-immunized persons in the western world, as was demonstrated in the Ontario Rubella outbreak of 2005. 176 out of 177 people who contracted the disease had not been immunized against it, including 4 pregnant women. Mumps are making a comeback in Canada as well, and lack of immunization seems to be involved.

Anywho.

HeatherM
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  #36  
Old 06.06.2007, 16:58
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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At least you guys are willing to talk about it, here in Canada/US people ignore you and look at you like you should be in the loonie bin lol

-Patrick
That certainly does seem to be the reaction poor Dr Carley has provoked:

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/carley1.html

Unfortunate woman.
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  #37  
Old 06.06.2007, 17:25
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Swissbob:

Here is the link to the swiss community and energy

http://www.methernitha.com/
http://www.linux-host.org/energy/eswiss.html

One of the inventors of alternate energy is Stan Meyer.
Unfortunately lot of information is kept secret or burried. We do see auto manufaturers focusing on increasing efficiency and making hybrid cars, and making statements like "Hydrogen cars will be the future but not for another 10 years" We automatically assume that is the best we have, it has to be it's coming from large corporations with billions of money in research.

What Nicola Tesla discovered over 100 years ago is just starting to be understood, about harnessing free energy call it an invisible force (star ware lol). There is the Canadian inventor John Hutchison who played with strong electro magnetics creating anti gravity.

For most people if they do not see it on TV, read it in the news or hear it on Radio it does not exist. There are many things out there that we are not told about.

Unfortunately the internet is used for scams hoaxes and so forth, it's sad that this powerful tool has been discredited. However it IS a powerful tool we as the people have. It is not controled like the other media.

Presenting documents and videos to try and convince someone of something is almost mute as in many cases people simply come back and say "it's fake". However the same can be said for the tv, news and radio

My apologies when I said "Too much information, too long ... I don't have time to read it." I meant to qoute the general response I get from people.

Also I am not saying you are closed minded, you are afterall engaging in a discussion. I am referring to the general populace and maybe even at that referring to North America.

Things are chaning slowly, people are starting to ask more questions. 9/11 is a good example, 50% of americans now believe it was an inside job, however in 2001 this was not the case. More and more people are listening to other sources besides what they hear on CNN.

And yes there are credible networks/reporters outhere, I don't dispute that. BBC is a good.

Before we get lashed for going off topic, I'll end it here. Maybe will start another thread in a more appropriate topic forum

Had fun .
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  #38  
Old 06.06.2007, 17:56
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Definitely off topic now.

New thread here
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  #39  
Old 06.06.2007, 21:32
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Hmm, lets think about that. UK, vaccines available, kids don't die from measles. Africa, particularly low gdp countries where vaccines are out of the reach of government, kid dies every minute. 1-0 to vaccines I'd say.

Compared to what - Measles, TB, Rubella, Dipheria? Yep.

I think you do if you didn't where's the fun in that?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...39/ai_91088422

Assuming that the facts in the article are correct, then this applies only to measles. However, I question if so many kids actually die from measles?

How do you know that it's not the malnutrition, the dirty water and the lack of basic hygiene?
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  #40  
Old 06.06.2007, 21:56
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Poppycock.

Haven't heard that expression for a while. Love it - I chuckled.

When our kids were born we read a load of literature on vaccinations and were almost afraid to make a decision about it because the arguements are so emotional. We decided we're not qualified to decide so we let the system (government and doctor recommendation) decide for us. Kids are fully vaccinated with the standard program (the little blue book) and in addition, we have got them immunized against FSME which is a type of virus from ticks in some areas of Switzerland which can cause Encephylitis (requries 3 vaccinations over 12 months or so). Apparently it is now also possible to get Meningococcal (spelling?) jabs as well now on the Krankenkasse. Must do that next.
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