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  #141  
Old 26.10.2009, 11:37
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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why is there even this debate? look at the facts, the uk's vaccination program irradiated common disease, eg polo, whooping cough, tb etc etc while all around the world people where still dying in large numbers for these disease. As soon as we got a bit lax with the vaccinations these disease came back to the uk, eg TB is now a big problem in some inner cities in the uk, and since the whole MMR thing there have been several large measles outbreaks.
And even if there was the smallest, smallest risk of serious side-effects in immunisation, don't people think that sometimes some actions should be taken for the common good of mankind - or have some of us become so selfish?
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  #142  
Old 26.10.2009, 11:47
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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And even if there was the smallest, smallest risk of serious side-effects in immunisation, don't people think that sometimes some actions should be taken for the common good of mankind - or have some of us become so selfish?
And even if there was a small risk with vaccinations, and government/big pharma/"they" are lying to us, the risk of these side effects is still tiny in comparison to the potential harm of the diseases themselves.

We take calculated risks with our health every day. It's like refusing to have a colonoscopy because there is a risk you might get internal bleeding and die.

From any angle, the whole anti-vaccination thing just doesn't make sense.
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  #143  
Old 26.10.2009, 15:41
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

I would be fascinated to see how many ant-vaccinists drink and/or smoke. Especially the latter in the presence of children.
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  #144  
Old 26.10.2009, 17:04
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

The anti-vaccination crowd is similar to people pushing intelligent design, on the surface they pretend to be encouraging debate, when in reality they have a clear agenda. There is next to nothing in their positions that is solidly supported by any kind of reliable data or evidence. It's just a new contrarian bandwagon for people to jump on. Contrarianism - when productive - should be encouraged, but not when it's an intellectually dishonest and transparent red herring for something else. Being the lone dissenter can be a heroic act of rebellion against groupthink. But there are also times when it simply means the conclusion being reached by everyone is so patently obvious that it only leaves room for a few particularly dim people to disagree. Plus, in the case of vaccinations, it's ignorance that can have harmful, even deadly, consequences.
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  #145  
Old 29.10.2009, 12:13
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

It's actually quite simple, you do not need to make vaccinations in Switzerland, my neighbor never did it for her kids... I don't understand why you wouldn't though except for all the advertising that it's bad...
I figure if it exists and the doctors are doing it what should it be bad? are the doctors out to get our children? concerning costs that can't be it as it is covered by the child's insurance fully.
My experience with friends and colleagues and myself who have children who have or have not vaccinated are the following:
all kids get sick at one point and it is good as this is the only way they develop antibodies for the future. but kids who are vaccinated at least in the first year of life are much less ill then the others who are not, and if they do get sick it is never as serious as those not vaccinated.
these are simple observations I have made.
But ofcourse this is particular decision that has to be made by the parents on their own without outside influence.
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  #146  
Old 30.10.2009, 19:34
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNHeV-9dPCs
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  #147  
Old 01.11.2009, 00:19
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

How about people who are too old to have had the MMR vaccine, but who still have Asperger's or Autism spectrum - I assure you that these people exist, and they might be in their 40's 50's for example.

I've had my regular flu shot, and in January I will have one against pneumonia - I am in a high risk category and I'll take my chances with the vaccine. If I had kids, I'd definitely weigh the options and think about it. I am less sure about the H1N1 for the more conventional high risk groups, but pregnant women is definitley scary.

At the same time, proper nutrition, rest and so on is important, and conventional medicine doesn't always give nutrition its due. For example, some people think Vit D is crucial in bolstering the immune system, and I was just reading something about statins possibly preventing flu. Hand washing is really easy, and something that prevents hospital infections. Actually, the smartest thing to do is to stay home, as others have said, rest and drink liquids. Keep your germs to yourself, thank you very much.

As for autism/asperger's spectrum, I feel that there is a strong genetic component, so people whose children have these traits might want to take a close look at their own family history. Inheritance is likely complicated, however, and with any emotional/mental health issue there is lots of denial and finger pointing. It can be exacerbated by the environment, too, of course. In part, the explosion in new cases has more to do with better screening than anything else.

There's another part to this too.... our society has changed to something with far less structure. I think this exacerbates conditions like asperger's spectrum, who generally do very well in structured, manufacturing, agarian worlds. Anyway, it goes beyond vaccine administration IMHO.

I think the key is to look at both conventional and complementary medicine critically, and use the best of both worlds. Personally I shy away from extremists, but that's just me.

Hoping you all stay well.
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  #148  
Old 01.11.2009, 15:40
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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The anti-vaccination crowd is similar to people pushing intelligent design...
It's called being a "true believer". You get true believers on both sides of any debate, recognised by their inability to even contemplate the possibility that they may not have all the truth. I've even met Dawkinsists like that - and I'm sure they're a profound embarrassment to Prof. Dawkins.
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  #149  
Old 01.11.2009, 20:03
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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It's called being a "true believer". You get true believers on both sides of any debate, recognised by their inability to even contemplate the possibility that they may not have all the truth. I've even met Dawkinsists like that - and I'm sure they're a profound embarrassment to Prof. Dawkins.
Hehe, just as I got the notification of a new post in this thread, the Quote of the Day tab had this weirdly-fitting gem in it:

In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.
- Stephen Jay Gould
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  #150  
Old 01.11.2009, 22:00
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Ah, but what if Stephen Gould is a "True Believer"?

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  #151  
Old 26.01.2010, 00:06
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Haven't heard that expression for a while. Love it - I chuckled.

When our kids were born we read a load of literature on vaccinations and were almost afraid to make a decision about it because the arguements are so emotional. We decided we're not qualified to decide so we let the system (government and doctor recommendation) decide for us. Kids are fully vaccinated with the standard program (the little blue book) and in addition, we have got them immunized against FSME which is a type of virus from ticks in some areas of Switzerland which can cause Encephylitis (requries 3 vaccinations over 12 months or so). Apparently it is now also possible to get meningococcal (spelling?) jabs as well now on the Krankenkasse. Must do that next.
I know that this is quite an old post, but was wondering what is the Krankenkasse? Also would you know where I could get my meningococcal vaccination?
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  #152  
Old 26.01.2010, 08:21
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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I know that this is quite an old post, but was wondering what is the Krankenkasse? Also would you know where I could get my meningococcal vaccination?
Krankenkasse is health insurance; compulsory for everyone resident here. There are numerous threads on this forum about krankenkasse so you should have a poke around with the search function for more details.

Call a doctor local to you for details of what vaccinations they offer.
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  #153  
Old 25.05.2010, 10:03
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Andrew Wakefield, the Dr behind the MMR contoversy, is to be struck off the medical register for "serious medical misconduct" following the earlier ruling of the GMC of his unethical conduct. Hopefully this will put an end to the made up contoversy over the MMR vacination. Full story can be found here.
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  #154  
Old 25.05.2010, 10:30
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Andrew Wakefield, the Dr behind the MMR contoversy, is to be struck off the medical register for "serious medical misconduct" following the earlier ruling of the GMC of his unethical conduct. Hopefully this will put an end to the made up contoversy over the MMR vacination. Full story can be found here.
I saw that too. I can't figure out the cult like following he still holds; though I suppose like with any cult, offering answers to desperate people works wonders.
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  #155  
Old 25.05.2010, 10:31
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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"serious medical misconduct"

really ?

I sometimes ask myself where's really the serious medical misconduct.

editing : to get more precise, I'm not against vaccination. I'm against the stuff they put inside and that can be dangerous.

now you can press the groan button.
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  #156  
Old 25.05.2010, 10:34
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Hopefully this will put an end to the made up contoversy over the MMR vacination.
You must be unfamiliar with conspiracy theorists. Wakefield will no doubt have a new career selling books to the nuts.
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  #157  
Old 25.05.2010, 10:37
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Bertrand to understand the ruling you need to read up on how he conducted his research. A good place to start is here. When you read about the invasive clinical procedures he subjects children to for his own purposes & not in the interest of the children or for any clinical reason you will see why he had to be stuck off.

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really ?

I sometimes ask myself where's really the serious medical misconduct.

editing : to get more precise, I'm not against vaccination. I'm against the stuff they put inside and that can be dangerous.
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  #158  
Old 25.05.2010, 10:38
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Too early in the morning to think that far ahead, unfortunatley you are correct.

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You must be unfamiliar with conspiracy theorists. Wakefield will no doubt have a new career selling books to the nuts.
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  #159  
Old 25.05.2010, 10:43
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Bertrand to understand the ruling you need to read up on how he conducted his research. A good place to start is here. When you read about the invasive clinical procedures he subjects children to for his own purposes & not in the interest of the children or for any clinical reason you will see why he had to be stuck off.
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Old 06.12.2011, 17:41
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Interesting thread that it appears I'm reviving. I did a search to learn more about vaccinations for babies in Switzerland and whether or not they were mandatory. Seems to be quite the debate here!

I didn't read most of it so it may already have been said - but I hope people understand that you'll get just about as much mercury in a can of tuna as you will in a vaccine dose that contains mercury. Not only that, but the form in vaccines is actually excreted more readily than that in fish.
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