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  #161  
Old 06.12.2011, 18:04
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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Interesting thread that it appears I'm reviving. I did a search to learn more about vaccinations for babies in Switzerland and whether or not they were mandatory. Seems to be quite the debate here!

I didn't read most of it so it may already have been said - but I hope people understand that you'll get just about as much mercury in a can of tuna as you will in a vaccine dose that contains mercury. Not only that, but the form in vaccines is actually excreted more readily than that in fish.
My pediatrician was quite pushy and the doctors in the hospital as well. However, before I had him ever vaccinated, I asked for a copy of the package insert, and they gave me a statistics (fear mongering) booklet. After reading the insert package AND seeing the statistics booklet were produced by the same company, I knew to avoid them at all costs. The company GSK has been repeatedly in the news and in court for tainted vaccines, drug scandals and recalled drugs. GSK can produce as many pretty statistics booklets in their favor till they are blue in the face... I do not trust them. What ever happened to vaccine/drug safety? What ever happened to non-bias statistical research?
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  #162  
Old 06.12.2011, 21:50
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

And the point is ? .... what is the alternative ?
Considering that the illnesses in question are far more dangerous than the vaccine..
(check out Rubella /3 days measles and the effect it can have on an expectant mother)
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  #163  
Old 06.12.2011, 21:57
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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What ever happened to children dying from preventable diseases?
Fixed that for you.
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  #164  
Old 06.12.2011, 22:20
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

For vaccination to be effective against illnesses like measles, you need a vaccination rate of about 90%. The whole scare about MMR has seriously reduced rate- and hence the disease is making a big come back in most Western countries- including of course the UK and Switzerland. This is tragic really, that people like Wakefield and friends can cause the return of such a dangerous, maiming and killing disease.

What is more important, the rights of the individual, or those of the whole community? I'll go for the latter.

One of our neihgbours in the UK was quite blunt in her absolute selfishness- she said 'well you lot are all having your kids vaccinated (in the 70s) - so I my kids are protected - no need to take the risk with them then.'
There no answer for that really
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  #165  
Old 14.01.2013, 11:40
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Wrote this for the anti-vax 'opinion' thread, got deleted there so I'm sticking it here... shame to waste it

Anti-vaxxing is a privilege of living in a vaccinated society. It is the luxury of saying 'I refuse the risks' because while those risks - which are small, but very real - are not visibly outweighed by the risks of not vaccinating.

Unless you've lived where preventable diseases run rampant (and I have, and it is frankly terrifying), the urge to risk minimization is very strong. After all, why risk being one of the fraction who react badly when the odds of getting the disease are so low? Herd immunity is just an argument until you see it fail... I'll point toward the current issue with whooping cough to show what can happen when it does. There have been deaths, and increasing numbers of local epidemics due to failure of herd immunity (see California and Nova Scotia, for two that stick in my head... though the NS outbreak was caused by the weaker DTaP vaccine requiring a booster that was inappropriately scheduled and left a couple of cohorts vulnerable. This led to a cataclysmic failure of the herd immunity and terrible consequences ensued). I don't have a linkie for this, as I got this in person from one of the NS public health officers. If anyone wants a cite, PM me and I'll email her for the correct resources.

This said, I think that there is an over-immunizing trend that is unnecessary. The childhood diseases, polio, smallpox, hep, typhus, etc.. if you are exposed to the diseases, having the immunity is well worth it, as being dead or permanently infected is quite inconvenient. However, for non-life threatening, mostly just uncomfortable diseases, I'm not sure immunization is the way to go.

On the topic of the HPV vaccine, my understanding is that it must be administered in childhood or it doesn't work, and the benefits for preventing cervical cancer are quite worth it. Still, that's not quite a herd immunity issue, so I understand that some parents would choose to opt out despite it being time-critical.

Last edited by Occasional_Canadian; 14.01.2013 at 11:50.
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  #166  
Old 14.01.2013, 16:12
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

The post below was removed elsewhere, but deemed appropriate here...

Let's hear the arguments in American accents:

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  #167  
Old 14.01.2013, 16:26
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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On the topic of the HPV vaccine, my understanding is that it must be administered in childhood or it doesn't work, and the benefits for preventing cervical cancer are quite worth it.
You basically need to get the vaccine before you are ever exposed to the HPV strains that cause cervical cancer. The vaccine is less effective the later you leave it, though "catch-up" vaccination has been approved in some countries up to the age of mid-20s (IIRC).

However, maximum efficacy is when administered before any exposure, i.e. before you are sexually active. Hence they chose a young age, as it is - theoretically - a non-issue.
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  #168  
Old 14.01.2013, 16:29
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

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You basically need to get the vaccine before you are ever exposed to the HPV strains that cause cervical cancer. The vaccine is less effective the later you leave it, though "catch-up" vaccination has been approved in some countries up to the age of mid-20s (IIRC).

However, maximum efficacy is when administered before any exposure, i.e. before you are sexually active. Hence they chose a young age, as it is - theoretically - a non-issue.
Thanks for the clarification- I was wondering about the necessity of early vaccination.
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  #169  
Old 14.01.2013, 17:32
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a fresh vaccination thread...

i posted some feedback about what it's like being a non-vaccinated person (my mother didn't believe in it and therefore i never had shots) in the previous vaccination thread, but my post got deleted because it “didn't answer the question”. i personally think it was a lot more relevant than a lot of the other posts in there, but whatever....
so now i start my on thread

i guess i was trying to bring some light to the opener as to what it would mean down the road for her kids. until now, not having my shots hasn't affected my life very much. but my husband just got a new job where he has to spend 3 months in india, and he won't let me visit him without getting my shots (fair enough, he loves me and doesn't want me to get sick).

coincidentally (before i even saw the vaccination thread) i made a doctors appointment for tomorrow to inquire about getting my shots. this has been a very hard decision for me, and caused a lot of drama with my mom...but i guess the fact is, is that i'm limited with where i can safely go in the world. so tomorrow, i will talk with the doctor and maybe even get my first shot in my life! (i'm 25 now)

any other experiences out there? is there a vaccine i should start with to see how i react? any shots to completely avoid?
i know i will chat with the doc and hear his professional medical opinion, but I’m really nervous! I’m scared of the shot itself, and then I’m very scared of the after-effect on my antibody-virgin self
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  #170  
Old 14.01.2013, 17:43
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Re: a fresh vaccination thread...

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i posted some feedback about what it's like being a non-vaccinated person (my mother didn't believe in it and therefore i never had shots) in the previous vaccination thread, but my post got deleted because it “didn't answer the question”. i personally think it was a lot more relevant than a lot of the other posts in there, but whatever....
so now i start my on thread

i guess i was trying to bring some light to the opener as to what it would mean down the road for her kids. until now, not having my shots hasn't affected my life very much. but my husband just got a new job where he has to spend 3 months in india, and he won't let me visit him without getting my shots (fair enough, he loves me and doesn't want me to get sick).

coincidentally (before i even saw the vaccination thread) i made a doctors appointment for tomorrow to inquire about getting my shots. this has been a very hard decision for me, and caused a lot of drama with my mom...but i guess the fact is, is that i'm limited with where i can safely go in the world. so tomorrow, i will talk with the doctor and maybe even get my first shot in my life! (i'm 25 now)

any other experiences out there? is there a vaccine i should start with to see how i react? any shots to completely avoid?
i know i will chat with the doc and hear his professional medical opinion, but I’m really nervous! I’m scared of the shot itself, and then I’m very scared of the after-effect on my antibody-virgin self
I PM'd you about that... (cause I knew that yours and any answer I posted would get deleted )..

Simple story, it's easy, (relatively) painless, and a very, very good idea in places where there is no herd immunity. I've only had one bad vax reaction, which was to the typhoid (I think) drink I got before moving to China. It made me mildly nauseous for about a day.

And considering the nastiness afoot over there, I never, ever regretted it. Esp. grateful for my hep shots- it's about 10% endemic over there with many asymptomatic carriers. Well worth being immune, because livers are useful.

Last edited by Occasional_Canadian; 14.01.2013 at 17:43. Reason: gibberish where I should have had language
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  #171  
Old 14.01.2013, 17:49
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Re: a fresh vaccination thread...

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i posted some feedback about what it's like being a non-vaccinated person (my mother didn't believe in it and therefore i never had shots) in the previous vaccination thread, but my post got deleted because it “didn't answer the question”. i personally think it was a lot more relevant than a lot of the other posts in there, but whatever....
so now i start my on thread

i guess i was trying to bring some light to the opener as to what it would mean down the road for her kids. until now, not having my shots hasn't affected my life very much. but my husband just got a new job where he has to spend 3 months in india, and he won't let me visit him without getting my shots (fair enough, he loves me and doesn't want me to get sick).

coincidentally (before i even saw the vaccination thread) i made a doctors appointment for tomorrow to inquire about getting my shots. this has been a very hard decision for me, and caused a lot of drama with my mom...but i guess the fact is, is that i'm limited with where i can safely go in the world. so tomorrow, i will talk with the doctor and maybe even get my first shot in my life! (i'm 25 now)

any other experiences out there? is there a vaccine i should start with to see how i react? any shots to completely avoid?
i know i will chat with the doc and hear his professional medical opinion, but I’m really nervous! I’m scared of the shot itself, and then I’m very scared of the after-effect on my antibody-virgin self
The doctor will probably advise you to go through your vaccines as if you were a newborn.

http://www.euvac.net/graphics/euvac/...itzerland.html

I've watched my two daughters go through this (they're 2 and 4), and it's not too bad. I also get the flu show every year, and it's really not so bad. Just tell the doctor that you're afraid of needles and you don't know what to expect with vaccines.

As with anything, a doctor who doesn't take your concerns seriously is not the doctor for you. Don't be afraid to ask questions or even end your consultation if you're not getting everything explained in a manner that you're happy with.
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  #172  
Old 14.01.2013, 17:57
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Re: a fresh vaccination thread...

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I PM'd you about that... (cause I knew that yours and any answer I posted would get deleted )..

Simple story, it's easy, (relatively) painless, and a very, very good idea in places where there is no herd immunity. I've only had one bad vax reaction, which was to the typhoid (I think) drink I got before moving to China. It made me mildly nauseous for about a day.

And considering the nastiness afoot over there, I never, ever regretted it. Esp. grateful for my hep shots- it's about 10% endemic over there with many asymptomatic carriers. Well worth being immune, because livers are useful.
yea, thanks for your support! sorry for not answering...i was thrown off by the message immediately following yours saying that i got deleted (i just don't get exactly how the EF works...i thought it was totally relevant to the discussion!)

my husband thinks that the hep shots are the most important ones as well. he said that there are 3 installments of them, and have to be spread out over however many months.
most likely, i will not be able to travel to india before he gets back...but we discussed that i should get them anyway for the next time or whatever.

i'm still just really nervous! the more i think about it, the more i'm psyching myself out
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  #173  
Old 14.01.2013, 18:04
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Re: a fresh vaccination thread...

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yea, thanks for your support! sorry for not answering...i was thrown off by the message immediately following yours saying that i got deleted (i just don't get exactly how the EF works...i thought it was totally relevant to the discussion!)

my husband thinks that the hep shots are the most important ones as well. he said that there are 3 installments of them, and have to be spread out over however many months.
most likely, i will not be able to travel to india before he gets back...but we discussed that i should get them anyway for the next time or whatever.

i'm still just really nervous! the more i think about it, the more i'm psyching myself out
Twinrix, just two shots before you go and a booster after a year.... Hep A&B.

And just relax, it's nothing to worry about. It's the pharmaceutical equivalent of eating dirt as a toddler- possibly a bit gross, but ultimately very good for your immune system (not to mention that unlike dirt-eating, there are no embarrassing photos of getting vaccinated to show off at family gatherings!)

Last edited by Occasional_Canadian; 14.01.2013 at 18:22. Reason: closing the parenthesis
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  #174  
Old 14.01.2013, 18:37
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Re: General thoughts in Switzerland toward non-vaccinating families

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One final note - in more than one post on this thread, it's been implied that the chicken pox vaccine causes shingles. This is not true. Shingles is caused by the same virus as chicken pox but it generally comes much later in life, usually during a stressful event.
That's what happened to me... terrible chicken pox as an infant (raging fever, spots on my eyeballs), one tiny scar on my face (as my mother told me "You were so young, we thought it would never scar if you scratched it" ) and blessed, blessed immunity for the rest of my natural.

Got hammered with shingles (or pseudo-shingles) during grade 11 exams immediately after a bout of mono. Not entirely sure, as it didn't zoster and the doc thought it could have been Epstein-Barr in my nerve myelin mimicking the symptoms. Either way it sucked.
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Old 14.01.2013, 18:42
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Re: General thoughts in Switzerland toward non-vaccinating families

Chickenpox is a unique case here. It's not like, say, measles or tetanus. There are even "pox parties" where parents try to get their young kids infected, to avoid it hitting in later life.
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  #176  
Old 14.01.2013, 18:47
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Re: Avoiding Vaccination?

Start of with a pretend polio vaccine - eat a sugar cube. (I think I'm showing my age, mind).
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Old 14.01.2013, 18:52
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Re: General thoughts in Switzerland toward non-vaccinating families

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Chickenpox is a unique case here. It's not like, say, measles or tetanus. There are even "pox parties" where parents try to get their young kids infected, to avoid it hitting in later life.
True. I don't agree with vaxxing for chickenpox- it's just not necessary (unlike polio, MMR, DTaP, hep, etc.)
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  #178  
Old 14.01.2013, 18:53
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Re: General thoughts in Switzerland toward non-vaccinating families

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...
BTW, this industry has a very strong lobby here, due to its weight in GNP. So be aware that if you read things that these articles might be sponsored.
...
Here's a couple of good books to read that aren't sponsored, but might help those with a natural deficiency in critical thinking skills. Ben Goldacre: Bad Science, Bad Pharma

"Big Pharma being sh*t doesn't mean magic beans cure cancer".

Edit: Above post mod-moved. Made in response to the claim that any article your read supporting pharma must be due to them sponsoring it.

Last edited by NotAllThere; 14.01.2013 at 19:20. Reason: Provide some context. I beginning to suspect a mod has got a thing going with AmericanMama...
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  #179  
Old 14.01.2013, 18:54
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Re: General thoughts in Switzerland toward non-vaccinating families

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True. I don't agree with vaxxing for chickenpox- it's just not necessary (unlike polio, MMR, DTaP, hep, etc.)
Except for those who were not exposed as a child...
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  #180  
Old 14.01.2013, 19:06
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Re: General thoughts in Switzerland toward non-vaccinating families

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Except for those who were not exposed as a child...
Fair enough. I have trouble conceiving of that, actually- EVERYONE was exposed by the time they hit grade 7 where I grew up
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