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Old 29.06.2007, 22:41
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Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

Hello,

lets say that at divorce time once the settlement is done, ie: alimony is 5,000 sfr per month. Will this amount be payable forever?

What if the financial situation changes, ie: the person who pays alimony loses the job and can't pay afford to pay it,? and lets say that the situation is reversed? If someone files for divorce without having an income at the time? any ideas/experiences?

Thanks

Last edited by couta; 30.06.2007 at 11:38. Reason: more suitable title
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Old 30.06.2007, 11:06
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Re: another divorce thread

What should the title of this thread be? I don't think "another divorce thread" helps people to decide whether they click or not?

I'm guessing maybe - Divorce - alimony issues (calculation, time limits?)

Would that be more helpful to other forum members?
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Old 30.06.2007, 11:40
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Re: another divorce thread

thanks Mark. You're correct.
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Old 31.01.2008, 18:14
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

It depends on several factors .
Who earned the money ?
Are there children involved ?
If so who took care of them until now and how old will this person be when the youngest child is 15yrs old ?
The person recieving the alimony has 2 years to ask for more money after that he or she cant come back and ask for more .
Acording to Swiss law this person has the right to live like they did before the divorce and if its possible they will give that person enough to do so .
If they person will be 50 or over when the youngest child is 15 you will have to pay untill the person is retired or that age I should say . My ex has to pay 9000 until my youngest is 15 and afterwards to me 5000 until 65 and the children until they are finished with their education .
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Old 31.01.2008, 18:55
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

It depends greatly on how long you have been married. For ex, under 5 years you'd be lucky to get 2 years worth of alimony.
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Old 01.02.2008, 19:49
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

I forgot to say I was married for 15 years ,that of course makes a big difference .
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Old 21.02.2008, 06:57
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

Can you recommend a good Divorce lawyer who speaks English in Zürich?
As for the alimony issue, is it true that if you have not worked previously as you were a stay at home mom you would be forced to work as the children grow older and if so , what is older?
If you do work, how does that influence your alimony?
Would you recommend not to work as it will mean less alimony and no profit though pride?
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Old 29.02.2008, 17:23
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

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It depends on several factors .
Who earned the money ?
Are there children involved ?
If so who took care of them until now and how old will this person be when the youngest child is 15yrs old ?
The person recieving the alimony has 2 years to ask for more money after that he or she cant come back and ask for more .
Acording to Swiss law this person has the right to live like they did before the divorce and if its possible they will give that person enough to do so .
If they person will be 50 or over when the youngest child is 15 you will have to pay untill the person is retired or that age I should say . My ex has to pay 9000 until my youngest is 15 and afterwards to me 5000 until 65 and the children until they are finished with their education .
That is quite a settlement. I don't know whether your divorce was settled before 2000, i.e. before the "no-fault" divorce came into effect. To my knowledge, recent Swiss Federal Supreme Court rulings indicate that settlements under which an ex-husband pays the ex-wife such a high amount of alimony until retirement are rare. I presume your ex-husband earns a very high salary in view of the large sum involved in your settlement, although perhaps this settlement was amicably reached, out of court. Also a rare occurrence.

These days in Switzerland, women are expected to work after divorce, regardless of who files for divorce, once the youngest child reaches a certain age (15 or 16, could be lower). Those out of the work force for a long time will be expected to pursue professional training to gain qualifications for today's job market.

Divorce lawyers earn their living by encouraging litigation - in Switzerland just as in other countries. So they will try to convince women being divorced by their husband to push for unreasonably large settlements ("unreasonable" not to be confused with "unfair," but simply meaning having little chance of being accepted by the judge), while the husband's lawyer will push to reject them.

Where children are involved, divorce is a destructive act with pervasive long-term implications. I was divorced myself after 21 years of marriage, two kids; my folks divorced when I was a teen. I really can't recommend this path to anyone who is sincerely interested in the long-term well-being of their children - except, of course, when genuine spousal or child abuse is the reason for the divorce, which it almost never is. But as long as one marital partner puts his or her own well-being above that of the family (I suspect in 9 cases out of 10, a new romantic liaison is the real reason), divorce will prevail. Children need the attention of their parents, and divorce saps parents' energy and finances. This is compounded by the "baggage" that children represent (not my term; that's what the personal ads call kids from a former marriage) in the eyes of a single parent's new suitor. Those fairy tales about the wicked step-mother are bone-chilling for a reason ...

Children don't seem to have anyone on their side anymore. It is my firm belief that mature adults should be able to sort out their values and their compatibility issues as a couple before having children, not after. I know things don't always go according to plan, but that's where the "maturity" part comes into play. It appears too easy these days for the spouse wanting out to succumb to that enticing other party waiting in the wings, or in that person's imagination, rather than to work through the trouble and grow as a couple. Your kids will most likely not "be just fine."
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Old 29.02.2008, 18:11
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

thanks for the information
while in theory i agree with what you are saying
in my case there was abuse, and the swiss police did nothing,
in the states he would have been put in prison, here he was released within an hour
having said that, with all due respect, sometimes it happens people grow in different directions, i definitely think people should be able to work out their differences but unfortunately very destructive ways of behaving evolve, and i can imagine not always defined as abuse but just as destructive,
too many people stay together in bad destructive situations
as for marriage being a haven for children, it is not always the case at all..
i think divorced women have a very bad reputation and it is true that divorced men have it way easier than before,
my ex found a girlfriend, a single mom, who obviously has no clue or else does not care, i dont know which is worse..that he has a history of domestic violence,, in any case he has the children very little (fortunately but difficult for me as i am on my own)
i dont know about other single moms but i am very very careful and would never introduce anyone to my kids without intensive screening and to quote shelly winters
"before you marry a man, have lunch with his ex wife"
I am not sure i believe in marriage at all anymore,perhaps what a lot of swiss couples do, live together , have kids THEN marry,is wiser but i suspect it is to the advantage of the man..
I have not found a divorce lawyer yet but have been given the advice not to drag it too long
i suspect when and if i get divorce i will lose money , and i dont see how at my age, mid 40's i can earn enough and cover child care, i dont know if there is anyone i can have walk the dogs, clean the house, cook ,shop and take the kids to their activities and do homework, i must have forgotten something on the way..
being a single parent is draining, i do wish people would sympathize rather than criticize or be afraid of us,
having said that it is a heck of a lot better than to be in a marriage where you are punching bag of your spouse physically or emotionally..
even if you just fight or just dont communicate kids suffer too..
it is far better to be alone and well
for all involved.
i am not sure if it is true that most marriages break up because of an affair , i think the affair is the result of a bad marriage for all sorts of reason, perhaps marriage is just not for everyone..
some people need more space, etc.
as i write my child is singing , playing,
if my ex would still be here, he would be hiding..
and abuse by the way is suffered by 30% of women according to the UN
in switzerland as the paper sometimes shows it is not a rare event for domestic violence to occur, sometimes after separation or divorce..
just to express my opinion..divorce is not necessarly bad, but marriages are not necessarly the best places to raise children , it all depends ..
I would like to hear from either men or women who divorced in switzerland , if you care to share , thanks !
ziggi
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Old 29.02.2008, 18:53
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

Hi Ziggi

Yours does sound like a case of genuine abuse, which is always tragic.
I honestly didn't intend to imply that divorce is never warranted, but only that divorce is a tragedy when children are involved - no matter how bad the marriage. If two adults cannot agree how to conduct a marriage, they most certainly will not agree on how to settle their divorce. The aftermath is devastating to everyone involved, kids included ("Divorce Poison," by Dr. Richard A. Warshak, discusses this in depth.).

About an affair being the by-product of a crumbling relationship, I'd have to say that that may sometimes be the case, it's still no excuse. What worse a way can there be to mend a broken relationship than to start an affair? Wouldn't the "adult" thing to do be to seek counseling, work through the issues, and if all else fails, end the marriage, and THEN seek a new relationship?
I think it all boils down to something as simple as having your cake and eating it too. Yes, a lot of people want to do this, but they should be aware of the consequences.

I'm afraid I can't help you with the English-speaking lawyer, as I am fluent in German and had a German-speaking one (several, in fact, due to relocation on my ex's part during the separation).

I sincerely wish you all the best, and urge you to get as much social support as possible. You will probably have to expect to downsize once the divorce is final (two households cost more than one, financial resources are finite, etc.), regardless of "who is to blame." "Fault" is no longer relevant in Swiss divorce cases, sad to say (in my seasoned opinion).
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Old 29.02.2008, 19:06
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

thanks for the quick reply
I still think that divorce is not necessarily bad for children..
it all depends on circumstances i suppose..
stress can be felt within a marriage and outside a marriage..
still it is easier having ONE adult make the decisions than TWO give opposite opinions, in my opinion
i dont necessarily think there should be evil step parents, i know a few families where the new spouse looks nice, and the children dont seem scared and abused..in fact they LOOK happy.
as for affairs, i am totally against that.
my ex has a new relationship and i find it still hard to understand how easy he jumped into a new family,
i need lots of time and my friends who have been divorced feel the same, though it differs from person to person
i find it very odd how some men can just jump into a new family situation especially as the old one has not been resolved..
i write men because i guess most of the time the women are left caring for the children.
Affairs are for me like you write, having the cake and eating it too.
i put up an ad in the swiss forum for single parents and i was surprised, one woman wrote me she has compromised on a married man
i cant understand that at all,
but then again not all people have moral values, and some think that it never will happen to them..i believe in the law of the karma..
i for one dont feel the need to replace the children's father , i can see the problems and if i ever date again it will only involve the children once the person has been screened with a fine comb..
as for the lawyer, i will take anyone now who is half decent, German speaking too, if you have anyone who is a feminist (man or woman) please foreward number ..
i dont have anyone at the moment and can not be choosey, my ex already filed and i have postponed once..
Have a nice weekend
thanks
ziggi
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Old 29.02.2008, 19:34
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

Thanks, you too.
Ask around among your divorced friends; I'm sure they can give you good advice regarding a lawyer in the area where you live.

All the best to you!
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Old 11.11.2014, 07:53
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

Revisiting an old thread -

I get the impression that every kanton/judge/gemeinde has their own rules as to how alimony is calculated.

Are there any ground rules? Any at all?

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Old 11.11.2014, 08:19
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

In Bern there are "judges rules" which may be slightly different in other cantons!

Generally the lower paid person is given alimony for two years to bring them over the minimum living allowance (About Fr 3'000 but it will depend on the level of social security paid out by the Gemeinde where the receiver lives) Added to this is a fixed sum for each child depending on the child's age. Then any remaining income is split 50/50. Assets are halved, except those brought into the marriage.

During these two years the poorer partner is encouraged to retrain /study for a better job. After two years the extra income drops away and reverts to the minimum payments to avoid any claim on local social security.

The minimum payments to a child continue increasing with age, until the end of the first further education course (University or apprenticeship). If the child drops out the payments can stop. Avoid using the child in any fight with your ex! Child allowances paid to the higher earner should be handed over completely to the child living with parent.

Your lawyer will certainly explain everything at the first meeting. If you cannot afford a lawyer, then she can apply to the court for legal aid, but she will probably ask for a deposit before she begins work (Fr 2'000 to 3'000). Legal aid has to be repaid to the court.

If either partner's circumstances change, then it requires another court decision. Court orders are set in stone! The provider pays out alimony free of tax, the recipient pays tax on this income.

Remember it is supposed to be a no fault divorce! If you make accusations, the lawyers will happily acknowledge it, but you will pay for their work, and the court will ignore it. If you are able to, do try and negotiate everything between yourselves, this will save you both thousands of Francs in legal fees!
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Old 11.11.2014, 09:35
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

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Revisiting an old thread -

I get the impression that every kanton/judge/gemeinde has their own rules as to how alimony is calculated.

Are there any ground rules? Any at all?
The best advice is "Get a lawyer".

- Child support is separate from alimony
- The primary care giver is only expected to work a certain % once the youngest child has reached a certain age - this staged up to (I think) 16 years old.

It is far better to hand over ALL the information to a lawyer and get them to run through it.
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Old 11.11.2014, 09:46
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

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Revisiting an old thread -

I get the impression that every kanton/judge/gemeinde has their own rules as to how alimony is calculated.

Are there any ground rules? Any at all?
Indeed, Kanton Aargau is known for being a little stricter on some "costs" than Kanton Zurich. But as mentioned ask a lawyer..

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Did you mean that comment?? Or were you not aware of the second poster on this thread?
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Old 11.11.2014, 14:34
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

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Did you mean that comment?? Or were you not aware of the second poster on this thread?

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The best advice is "Get a lawyer".

- Child support is separate from alimony
- The primary care giver is only expected to work a certain % once the youngest child has reached a certain age - this staged up to (I think) 16 years old.

It is far better to hand over ALL the information to a lawyer and get them to run through it.

Maybe it is child support that I am thinking of then.
I've tried that.. but "his" figure is quite far from "my" figure... I guess thats the game.

And there are close on a million articles on the subject on the Swiss websites.

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Old 11.11.2014, 15:08
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation


Be that as it may, I still think the comment is in poor taste considering the second poster on this thread has passed away.


Back on topic: there are actually "fixed" basic rules for the calculation of alimony payments. The difference between the various courts arises out of what they considerd in the calculation of the individual's needs.

There are two basic methods used to calculate. The choice of method depends on the total income of the parties. Again the "cut off point" for the two-step method in favour of the actual needs method various from Kanton to Kanton.
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Old 29.10.2015, 12:59
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

Just found this thread.. I am looking for a good lawyer to help me get on the right street with a separation/divorce from my husband.
Even though we are married only from 2012,he never wanted a wife,only a servant( cook,clean,keep the house,have a child because everybody said it was time for him etc). we have now 2 years of actually living separated in house,although for him this is the ''normal marriage'': he does not give me any money at all(he only pays rent and health insurances),he said to me many many times that he does not work to maintain me(which would not be the case because I work from the first month I arrived here ..for him). With my salary(work 60%) I pay everything needed for me ,our son( actually only mine because he never ever does anything with the child:never plays,feed,cleans,baths,puts clothes,buys ..nothing),food in the house,products for cleaning,washing etc etc. he never wnated to go in any excursion with us,or with me,never wanted any photos,family memories etc...
he did threaten me a lot saying that if I will go to ask for divorce he will take the child from me,he will make in way that I will remain alone without anything etc etc....how will the money for the child be calculated( he recently got fired)...
Please encourage me,those of you who are already separated. I know we(me and my angel) will have a better life after all this,but right now I am a bit....
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Old 29.10.2015, 13:14
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Re: Divorce - alimony issues / calculation

Sorry to hear of your situation. This may help get you started.

https://www.ch.ch/en/divorce/

If you're a non-EU national be careful. Depending on your individual circumstances you could lose the right to live/work here after a divorce.

Also note that as of 1st July last year joint custody of children became the default stance so it's very unlikely he could take your son away from you without a very good reason. However, the same applies to you so any major decisions in your son's life, like where he lives, whether you could move to another country with him, etc, will all have to be agreed with your ex once you divorce.

Last edited by mirfield; 30.10.2015 at 11:27. Reason: Removed personal name (changed user name)
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