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18.06.2011, 21:46
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income
this is the case. it is not simply application of basic rules, but a careful look at individual circumstances. details given so far are not enough to give an answer. http://ewnbusiness.com/475/tie-break...-tax-residency | | This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post: | | 
18.06.2011, 22:19
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income
We got affected by this a while back and we were requested to give every date of entry into the UK and out. The 91 day rule is not as straightforward as you are led to believe. They did some calculation of the days between visits to the UK but in the end all was fine.
After this correspondance, that went on for months, - we were forever receiving letters from them.
Get everything you are told in writing as we had contradictions several times.
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19.06.2011, 00:36
| | Junior Member | | Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Zurich
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income | Quote: | |  | | | Hi,
If you intend to be away for more than a tax year & loose your job, you have to inform the UK revenue as you will then be liable to UK tax. The P85 is only a temporary approval.
As you say "You will be treated as not resident and not ordinarily resident in the UK from 3 April 2008." , that is assuming you actually do work for the period you said you would.
Intention alone is not enough!
If the OP has a wife & children in the UK, it's quite clear & not muddied! | | | | | The point I am making is that by intending to stay out for a whole tax year and to remain employed you are, in the begining, able to be classed as a non res of the UK. OF COURSE if you don't realise those intentions then things change and your non res status will be reconsidered by HMRC. I think you are being obtuse on this point. Temporary approval ... ahem.
To date I have not received any communication telling me that my temporary non res status is now more concrete. The original classiification that you call temporary still stands!
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19.06.2011, 11:10
| | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Zug
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income | Quote: | |  | | | The point I am making is that by intending to stay out for a whole tax year and to remain employed you are, in the begining, able to be classed as a non res of the UK. OF COURSE if you don't realise those intentions then things change and your non res status will be reconsidered by HMRC. I think you are being obtuse on this point. Temporary approval ... ahem.
To date I have not received any communication telling me that my temporary non res status is now more concrete. The original classiification that you call temporary still stands! | | | | | You will never receive an concrete confirmation from HMRC, that can only obtained that from winning a case in the high court, till then it's just 'an opinion'. The joys of the UK legal system. The recenve will only reconcider your claims if they investigate, th UK system is self assesment.
Interestingly when I left in the UK in 94, I had a discussion with my UK lawyer in 95, he said to be totally sure of no problems later I should do the following:-
Sell my Flat
Sell any UK Shares
Close any interest baring accounts in the UK
Not set foot in the UK for a full tax year minimium
He bellieved it was necessary to demonstrate that you had really left the UK & thats 17 years ago.
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19.06.2011, 11:47
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income | 
19.06.2011, 13:41
| | Junior Member | | Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Zurich
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income
Yup, we all know how slippery the Revenue are on its opinions and these opinions can be changed even taking in retrospective time.
All I am saying is, it is better to have a favourable opinion from the Revenue that you are considered non res. And to get this you should intend to the things we all know we should do from the off.
The chances of being investigated when your bounty of unpaid tax is small (less than 100k) are in my humble opinion very small.
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19.06.2011, 14:32
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income | Quote: | |  | | | Yup, we all know how slippery the Revenue are on its opinions and these opinions can be changed even taking in retrospective time.
All I am saying is, it is better to have a favourable opinion from the Revenue that you are considered non res. And to get this you should intend to the things we all know we should do from the off.
The chances of being investigated when your bounty of unpaid tax is small (less than 100k) are in my humble opinion very small. | | | | | My brother has been under investigation for over 10 years, & to date has received no additional demands for payment. It's got to the stage where he will have to go to the High Court to ask for the case to be closed. He responds to the revenues questions within 30 days, they take 2 years or more before asking for more information.
Interest is payable on unpaid tax at I bilieve 8% copmound so the unpaid tax will double in 9 years before addimg penalties of 100%. It's not something you want to get wrong.
With the UK budget deficet expats are an easy target, expect the heat to go up!
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19.06.2011, 15:40
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income | Quote: | |  | | | With the UK budget deficet expats are an easy target, expect the heat to go up! | | | | | exactly, this is the big worry. the UK is scraping around for tax money and expats could be high on the hit list.
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19.06.2011, 16:00
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income | Quote: | |  | | | exactly, this is the big worry. the UK is scraping around for tax money and expats could be high on the hit list. | | | | | An expat earning 120,000 chf could easily owe the UK revenue £100,000 after 5 years. NI contributions are not deductible in the uk, Swiss pension that can be taken to buy a house almost certainly wont be, same for the various insurances, so your UK taxable income could be 10% or more higher than your Swiss, much of which will be taxable at 40%.
As the UK has only 1 income tax, which is equivalent to Bundessteuer, will you even get credit for Canton or Geminde tax? Geminde tax of course would be equal to rates or whatever they call it now.
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19.06.2011, 17:21
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income
Thanks to all for the feedback.
On the HMRC website, searching for "HMRC6" brings up the relevant PDF.
Basically stay away for at least 1 year. There is the 180 days (or 90 day average) rule, but a host of other indicators such as maintaining a residence. Investment property is ok.
All of the other stuff such as bank accounts, directorships etc are secondary indicators and it would be prudent to minimise these.
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07.07.2011, 13:50
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income | Quote: | |  | | | The UK tax you pay may depend on whether you're 'resident', 'ordinarily resident' or 'domiciled' in the UK. You can be more than one of these - or none. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/simple-gu...-residence.pdf http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/hmrc6.pdf
"• Family ties include having a spouse, civil partner, children or other family
members you are close to, in the UK.
• Social ties include membership of clubs and societies and events that you
regularly attend or host. It also includes any regular recreational engagement,
such as returning each year for an annual sporting season.
• Business ties include owning or being a director of a business based in the
UK, or having employment, including self-employment, in the UK. Regular
employment duties in the UK are a tie and you need to consider the extent,
frequency and nature of those duties. It does not matter if the duties
themselves are not taxed, for example because of a DTA.
• Property ties include a house or apartment that you own or lease, or property
held primarily for investment but that also provides you with accommodation
when you are in the UK. A house or apartment provided for your use for the
duration of your time in the UK as part of an employment package is
‘available accommodation’ and is a tie to the UK." | | | | | I agree- doesn't sound like you have left the UK for tax purposes. The rules are changing in the UK from next April as well, so probably worth speaking to a UK adviser.
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07.07.2011, 13:56
|  | Senior Member | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Richti aka Minas Tirith
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| | | Re: HMRC UK tax on Swiss Income
These taxes are covered by the treaty, so yes. | Quote: | |  | | | An expat earning 120,000 chf could easily owe the UK revenue £100,000 after 5 years. NI contributions are not deductible in the uk, Swiss pension that can be taken to buy a house almost certainly wont be, same for the various insurances, so your UK taxable income could be 10% or more higher than your Swiss, much of which will be taxable at 40%.
As the UK has only 1 income tax, which is equivalent to Bundessteuer, will you even get credit for Canton or Geminde tax? Geminde tax of course would be equal to rates or whatever they call it now. | | | | | | |
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