Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation
View Poll Results: How long does the euro have left?
Monday 4 3.85%
Before/near Xmas 12 11.54%
Mid-February 34 32.69%
It'll stay intact due to an overnight hallmark 54 51.92%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #221  
Old 12.06.2012, 12:15
ratbag's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zürich
Posts: 466
Groaned at 21 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 374 Times in 203 Posts
ratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeable
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

What is it with so many (particularly the blonde types) on this thread
who want to see the destruction of Euro and EU?
What drives the vindictive sentiments that wants to see countries effectively destroyed?
Why the apparent glee expressed in watching and cheering on destruction?
Anybody can destroy, few can build.
Would it not be better to bang some heads and fix the current system?
The lives of millions of people across Europe will lie in tatters.
Put on hold for a generation or more.
Even the cheer leaders for the impending chaos will probably suffer.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank ratbag for this useful post:
  #222  
Old 12.06.2012, 12:25
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,614
Groaned at 456 Times in 291 Posts
Thanked 2,936 Times in 1,469 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
What is it with so many (particularly the blonde types) on this thread
who want to see the destruction of Euro and EU?
What drives the vindictive sentiments that wants to see countries effectively destroyed?
Why the apparent glee expressed in watching and cheering on destruction?
Anybody can destroy, few can build.
Would it not be better to bang some heads and fix the current system?
The lives of millions of people across Europe will lie in tatters.
Put on hold for a generation or more.
Even the cheer leaders for the impending chaos will probably suffer.
It's already millions unemployed...
It happened, it's a fact. But no one really cares or do anything...
Also I haven't seen on that forum anyone so much willing to destroy (or happy about it).
Generations screwed it's already the case. And the "retirement" excuse is a massive scam, so big that people refuses to believe, to take actions.

So yes, build something better, I agree with you. But we can not even act cleverly so is there really a chance, an opportunity?

After all, we will adapt, evolve, maybe if that economic system is reaching it's end, might not be bad after all... Seeing how we handle it, seeing so much destruction it has cause (environment, etc...) and seeing how it evolves (jobs exported to Asia, high consumption of Oil, economically feeding-bleeding out Europe to the rich middle europe countries...). Also seeing how politicals have fecked the citizen to feed the banks, feed the rich...

PS: I have nothing to do with destroying that system, but thinking how we can adapt, and wondering if it's such a bad thing?
Reply With Quote
  #223  
Old 12.06.2012, 12:30
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 6,502
Groaned at 304 Times in 201 Posts
Thanked 8,080 Times in 2,887 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
What is it with so many (particularly the blonde types) on this thread
who want to see the destruction of Euro and EU?
What drives the vindictive sentiments that wants to see countries effectively destroyed?
Why the apparent glee expressed in watching and cheering on destruction?
Anybody can destroy, few can build.
Would it not be better to bang some heads and fix the current system?
The lives of millions of people across Europe will lie in tatters.
Put on hold for a generation or more.
Even the cheer leaders for the impending chaos will probably suffer.
Like we "blondes" actually influence matters !

It is out of frustration that I post. All I see my investments and pension fund evaporating before my eyes while politicians rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Much as I would like to "bang some heads and fix the current situation" there is nothing I can do - I'm travelling 3rd class and don't even get a deckchair to rearrange...
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank AbFab for this useful post:
  #224  
Old 12.06.2012, 12:36
Lex's Avatar
Lex Lex is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zug
Posts: 314
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 233 Times in 127 Posts
Lex has an excellent reputationLex has an excellent reputationLex has an excellent reputationLex has an excellent reputation
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
What is it with so many (particularly the blonde types) on this thread
who want to see the destruction of Euro and EU?
What drives the vindictive sentiments that wants to see countries effectively destroyed?
Why the apparent glee expressed in watching and cheering on destruction?
Anybody can destroy, few can build.
Would it not be better to bang some heads and fix the current system?
The lives of millions of people across Europe will lie in tatters.
Put on hold for a generation or more.
Even the cheer leaders for the impending chaos will probably suffer.
You have CAUSE and EFFECT completely back the front
Reply With Quote
  #225  
Old 12.06.2012, 12:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,614
Groaned at 456 Times in 291 Posts
Thanked 2,936 Times in 1,469 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
Like we "blondes" actually influence matters !

It is out of frustration that I post. All I see my investments and pension fund evaporating before my eyes while politicians rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Much as I would like to "bang some heads and fix the current situation" there is nothing I can do - I'm travelling 3rd class and don't even get a deckchair to rearrange...
It's ok! I would like to reassure you. Even if you end up with no money, we will still be full of pity for you. Also, the society will have some measure to help you (contact citizen advice services, homeless people association, free food, etc...).

Also the government, politicians, bankers, would like to say a big thank you:they will be eternally grateful. Your life long contribution in paying taxes, insurances, etc... has been highly appreciated. Without you it would have not been possible to feed their system.
Oh don't worry about them, they already own houses, gold, etc... so be rest assured: they will be safe.

Thanks again to you and your fellow citizens


Reply With Quote
  #226  
Old 12.06.2012, 12:57
ratbag's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zürich
Posts: 466
Groaned at 21 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 374 Times in 203 Posts
ratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeable
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

And the bar stewards who created, and continue to thrive in, a virtual edifice of CDSs
and other non-existent products where both losses and profits are funded
by the general public are laughing out their arses and getting off scott free.
Sure the politicians are at fault. But so is the unsustainable and out
of control banking system. "The light touch of regulation".
Wealth cannot be created by micro trading on super-computers overnight.
Where do you think the salaries/bonuses come from?
Your (mine) mortgage, insurance, pension etc.

Quote:
View Post
Like we "blondes" actually influence matters !

It is out of frustration that I post. All I see my investments and pension fund evaporating before my eyes while politicians rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Much as I would like to "bang some heads and fix the current situation" there is nothing I can do - I'm travelling 3rd class and don't even get a deckchair to rearrange...
Reply With Quote
  #227  
Old 12.06.2012, 13:01
ratbag's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zürich
Posts: 466
Groaned at 21 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 374 Times in 203 Posts
ratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeable
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Got no idea what ur getting at.
I have made no attempt to analyse cause and effect in this situation.
Clearly the Jonahs have got all the answers!
My post was to deride those who ghoulishly cheer the impending destruction.

Quote:
View Post
You have CAUSE and EFFECT completely back the front
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ratbag for this useful post:
  #228  
Old 12.06.2012, 13:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,614
Groaned at 456 Times in 291 Posts
Thanked 2,936 Times in 1,469 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
My post was to deride those who ghoulishly cheer the impending destruction.
Maybe it's time!?
Maybe it's good opportunity to build/rethink our society on better basis?
I'm just observing that no one can do anything about the current situation. So Why not considering that destruction and starting over on a fresh basis, with different values?



Maybe next time we won't feed the bank with taxpayers money...maybe they will collapse, and be force to change or disappear?
maybe we will put the environment, quality of life first instead of valuing economical results at all costs?

Reply With Quote
  #229  
Old 12.06.2012, 13:25
ratbag's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zürich
Posts: 466
Groaned at 21 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 374 Times in 203 Posts
ratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeable
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Almost wiv u on this bruv.!
But how do we prevent a free-for-all smash-n-grab like happened in China and the Soviet Union where a bunch of apparachiks and thugs now hold the lions share?

Quote:
View Post
Maybe it's time!?
Maybe it's good opportunity to build/rethink our society on better basis?
I'm just observing that no one can do anything about the current situation. So Why not considering that destruction and starting over on a fresh basis, with different values?



Maybe next time we won't feed the bank with taxpayers money...maybe they will collapse, and be force to change or disappear?
maybe we will put the environment, quality of life first instead of valuing economical results at all costs?

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ratbag for this useful post:
  #230  
Old 12.06.2012, 13:45
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,516
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,527 Times in 4,670 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Seems the 100Bn lent to Spain this week is classed as "preferred" debt. Which means if Spain runs into real trouble & cannot payback loans/bonds @ 100% the "preferred" debt gets first call on any cash until they get the full 100Bn back.

This hardly encourages other people to buy Spanish bonds knowing they will carry most of any potential losses.
Reply With Quote
  #231  
Old 12.06.2012, 14:25
Lex's Avatar
Lex Lex is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zug
Posts: 314
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 233 Times in 127 Posts
Lex has an excellent reputationLex has an excellent reputationLex has an excellent reputationLex has an excellent reputation
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
Anybody can destroy, few can build.
Would it not be better to bang some heads and fix the current system?
The lives of millions of people across Europe will lie in tatters.
Put on hold for a generation or more.
'Banging heads together' and 'fixing' is exactly how concepts like the Euro came about. The exact people that are 'fixing' now are the same 'fixers' or similar, who created the current situation - essentially, they wont fix anything but the opposite (the cause and effect I refer to). Their solution is even more integration (via fiscal integration) - so basically move from one flawed idea, put it all on 'red' and bet everything all in (a big gamble and which will probably ruin even more lives and stir even more nationalism).

There were many people out there who warned about these exact consequences back pre 2000. Papers like 'The Financial Times' mocked and ridiculed these people as anti Europeans, nut jobs, dont know what they are talking about types, 'jonahs' etc etc (seem familiar ). Its just impossible to debate or engage in debate with pro EU/Euro elitists and their media allies. Debate has been null and void and the only argument was pro's, pro's and pro's. Thats changed a little bit now but its late to the party.

The fact that countries that were moderately fiscally conservative were to be placed in the same group as those that weren't was already destined to be a disaster from the beginning. The short term, which is the attention span of politicians, was the only consideration. And in the short term, stronger economies could access larger markets (via their savings/investments) and weaker economies could access CHEAPER funding. The fact that there was a complete mismatch to how these countries operate was simply discarded. So you had countries that would normally not have access to cheap funding get it (and with it blow bubbles in their property markets). Greece on the other hand didnt have a property bubble problem, just government spending was completely out of whack. But who really cared when Greece could borrow at rates that were almost identical to Germany's - even though the two ran on opposing mentalities. All Greece had to do was simply to go back into the markets and borrow more to fund their budget deficits - and why wouldnt they at such low rates. You should also stop separating politicians from the banking cartels, they are basically one and the same as they help each other. Who do you think funds the budget deficits and loads up on government bonds? Regardless though, Greece entered the Eurozone by fudging their accounts, and they did this with the help of international banks - But one couldnt have done it without the other. They work in tandem and whats worse is that there is evidence out there that suggests Brussels always knew that was the case from Day 1.

The whole thing has had plenty of holes from the beginning, full of corruption, favoritism etc. The solution is to remove countries where the Euro hinders competition away from those who are already relatively competitive. Except how can the politicians do that when, since 2008, they have already thrown 100's of billions at a problem that could have already been solved back then. That would be an admission of error - and pigs will fly
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Lex for this useful post:
  #232  
Old 12.06.2012, 15:11
poptart's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,786
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 3,013 Times in 1,242 Posts
poptart has a reputation beyond reputepoptart has a reputation beyond reputepoptart has a reputation beyond reputepoptart has a reputation beyond reputepoptart has a reputation beyond reputepoptart has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
P.S. And plese someone stop poptart, the fear mongering she's practicing over here is irritating.
LOL...I'm a fearmonger? Hey, all I'm doing is watching and reading what's coming out of the EU. I'm just glad I'm on this side of the ocean as my optimism has waned for an orderly solution to the crisis. Oh, yeah, now Italy is going to need a bailout if my morning news feed is correct. You stick with your optimism, but I'm going to stockpile TP in my basement.
Reply With Quote
  #233  
Old 12.06.2012, 15:34
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Ecublens, Lausanne, VD
Posts: 49
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 31 Times in 20 Posts
photonion has no particular reputation at present
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
...The whole thing has had plenty of holes from the beginning, full of corruption, favoritism etc. The solution is to remove countries where the Euro hinders competition away from those who are already relatively competitive...
Great post Lex,
This should be done from day 1 of the crisis. Now Greece would probably be growing and the rest of the European south would stay quite away from the current problems... But we keep saving the riskless banks... As if the sun would stop shining or the animals would stop breeding and Andromeda would crash us (or better 'swallow' us) in two days.... Someone out there is violating the conservation of energy law and that's definitely not me... As previously stated.... 'interesting times' indeed....
Reply With Quote
  #234  
Old 12.06.2012, 16:01
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 8,848
Groaned at 85 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 7,391 Times in 3,729 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
There were many people out there who warned about these exact consequences back pre 2000.
I always thought it was a stupid idea from the beginning. The markets/countries are just too different and had (and still have) very different needs/economies etc. And of course the Euro made countries like Italy, Spain & Portugal who were still very much manufacturing economies completely un-competative.

The fact is that the EU was put together also to help countries do business with each other. And what's happening now? Everyone is doing business with China. Again because the PIIGS are not competitive.



Quote:
View Post

(a big gamble and which will probably ruin even more lives and stir even more nationalism).
Isn't that the great irony!?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank miniMia for this useful post:
  #235  
Old 12.06.2012, 16:09
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,614
Groaned at 456 Times in 291 Posts
Thanked 2,936 Times in 1,469 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

I think they should have chosen 2 euros...1 for the richest countries, 1 for the less rich countries... (2 different money, 1 stronger, 1 weaker)
Maybe it's dumb, I don't know- But I think it would have allowed flexibility and would have not screwed the poorer countries...
Reply With Quote
  #236  
Old 12.06.2012, 16:15
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 8,848
Groaned at 85 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 7,391 Times in 3,729 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
I think they should have chosen 2 euros...1 for the richest countries, 1 for the less rich countries... (2 different money, 1 stronger, 1 weaker)
Maybe it's dumb, I don't know- But I think it would have allowed flexibility and would have not screwed the poorer countries...
Maybe they should have just left well enough alone.
Reply With Quote
  #237  
Old 12.06.2012, 16:18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 376
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 118 Times in 74 Posts
naza has no particular reputation at present
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
And of course the Euro made countries like Italy, Spain & Portugal who were still very much manufacturing economies completely un-competative.
completely true!! These countries moved away from a manufacturing and agrarian economy to a service based economy due to all the "incentives" of the EU. Obviously the skill set of the population was not there and nothing was done to bring them up to speed to behave as a service based economy. The rest you know... emerging markets, outside competition, etc.

finally whether we like it or not small economies just can't compete on a wide scale as large economies. the model was doomed to fail from the begining
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank naza for this useful post:
  #238  
Old 12.06.2012, 16:38
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,458
Groaned at 50 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 2,231 Times in 1,225 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
I always thought it was a stupid idea from the beginning. The markets/countries are just too different
That's not the problem.
The problem is that the politicians failed to institute a way to level these differences.
In Germany, the richer "states" pay part of the surplus to the poorer states.
But even in Germany, the richer states are fed-up with some poorer states just regarding this as yearly subsidies and getting "fat" on the money.

(Well, they don't really get "fat", in reality, they are too small to be viable on themselves, but the voting population there does not want to merge with another state, losing some sovereignty in the process and the people in the "overtaking" state usually don't want to inherit all the debt these guys bring with them - witness the failed merger of Berlin and Brandenburg a few years ago.)

This is what they call the "Transfer-Union", where rich countries would have to pay money to the less rich countries.

Obviously, that concept isn't very popular in the countries that would have to foot the bill, not only in Germany.
There's no rational way to sell this to the voters these days.


Quote:
View Post
and had (and still have) very different needs/economies etc. And of course the Euro made countries like Italy, Spain & Portugal who were still very much manufacturing economies completely un-competetive.
Germany is a "manufacturing economy", too, but is quite competitive even with quite high wages, high social contributions and high taxes (well, not for companies). But due to (relatively) low corruption rates, low strike-rates and maybe better work-ethic, the productivity is much higher in Germany.

Even though I would like to believe so, I don't think the solution consists of every EU-state becoming as productive as Germany. Who would buy all this stuff anyway?
OTOH, going on a spending-spree like there's no tomorrow (hello Greece) is certainly not the solution, either.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank rainer_d for this useful post:
  #239  
Old 12.06.2012, 16:57
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,439
Groaned at 178 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,551 Times in 765 Posts
Dack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of many
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
Again because the PIIGS are not competitive.
PIIGS have major cultural problems such as nepotism, promoting your friends, bosses who can't take any hint of constructive critisism from an employee etc.. What incentive has a young graduate in a PIIGS country to work hard if promotion / career prospects depend much more on his network of personal relationships than on his ability to make positive changes?

Things may be changing but too slowly.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Dack Rambo for this useful post:
  #240  
Old 12.06.2012, 17:02
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 376
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 118 Times in 74 Posts
naza has no particular reputation at present
Re: How long does the Euro have left?

Quote:
View Post
PIIGS have major cultural problems such as nepotism, promoting your friends, bosses who can't take any hint of constructive critisism from an employee etc.. What incentive has a young graduate in a PIIGS country to work hard if promotion / career prospects depend much more on his network of personal relationships than on his ability to make positive changes?

Things may be changing but too slowly.
you are confusing 2 topics: career progression and economy. The economy IMHO is more related to unions, corruption, high taxes, poor investments, etc

the "cultural" problems you described exist everywhere even in US and CH
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
B permit - how long does applying take at the kreisburo? emmabiasiolo Permits/visas/government 5 23.06.2011 15:37
How Does the Falling Euro Affect the CHF? esto Finance/banking/taxation 27 18.06.2010 20:02
How long does it take for the application process? Florin Employment 2 29.05.2009 15:44
How long does it take getting the Ausweis? dbg Permits/visas/government 3 12.04.2007 23:51


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0