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Old 23.11.2012, 13:46
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13 month Quellensteuer shock !

Are all other permit B holders who pay Quellensteuer getting a considerably lower 13 month salary this month due to being charged more Quellensteuer ( in my case almost double )?
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Old 23.11.2012, 13:48
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

There are only 12 months in a year. I assume the tax office did a normal thing and assumed that, what with a year having 12 months, you'd get 12 monthly salaries.

As you seem to be getting 13, they may have suddenly realised your salary is higher than they thought, and hence have taxed you on it (in that one salary payment).
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Old 23.11.2012, 13:48
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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Are all other permit B holders who pay Quellensteuer getting a considerably lower 13 month salary this month due to being charged more Quellensteuer ( in my case almost double )?
Of course, it gets grossed up & then tax applied. Count your self lucky you get a 13th month salary!
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Old 23.11.2012, 13:56
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

My partner is paid in 13 equal instalments and is taxed equally for each which I think it how it should be so maybe they taxed you incorrectly for some of the other months. If you have paid more tax than you should you will be able to claim it back on a tax return.
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Old 23.11.2012, 13:58
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

I get paid monthly, they consider 4 weeks per month... Hence why we get the 13th month. . .

So i am taxed as usual.
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:00
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

I get a 13th month which is paid in two halves, which sort of works like a 'bonus', and yes, it does get taxed higher than my regular monthly salary... but the gross salary is higher to start with, and I still end up with more in my pocket...
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:02
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

Thanks , yes my yearly salary is split into 13 ( it's not an extra month payment unfortunately !) and this month it seems I have been taxed on the rate of my earnings being double .. In fact this month im paying almost 2k in tax when id normally pay around 500chf....I will have to look into it
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:07
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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Of course, it gets grossed up & then tax applied. Count your self lucky you get a 13th month salary!
Why?

People who have 12 and 13 months usually have the same salary divided by 12 or 13 respectively. There's not much luck involved.

OP - ask your company to pay you over 12 months - that way the tax impact will be less.

Adrian - it isn't that simple you get taxed disproportionately more as the tax office things that the 12/13 months is what you get paid annually, so people end up jumping several tax brackets...
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:09
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

So, some people who get '13th month' are being paid 4 weekly rather than 'monthly'.... so they end up with 13 salaries per calendar year.

In that case, the Quellensteuer should be the same every month ?

For us, we get slightly less for 10 months of the year, and the balance is split into two 'bonus' payments which are paid one just before summer break and one just before christmas. I think it's a school teacher thing ? Although for locals, the point of saving up the extra is to pay the taxes...
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:12
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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Adrian - it isn't that simple you get taxed disproportionately more as the tax office things that the 12/13 months is what you get paid annually, so people end up jumping several tax brackets...
My understanding is that it all evens out in the wash i.e. even if you are quellensteur you file a tax return the following year and any overpayment will be refunded to you.
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:14
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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My understanding is that it all evens out in the wash i.e. even if you are quellensteur you file a tax return the following year and any overpayment will be refunded to you.
I thought that too.

But I've also seen people posting to the effect that if you pay QS 1) you are not expected to do a tax return and 2) you are not allowed to...

I don't know if this is true of not, but if so it is Maybe there is a regional variation in this.

Fundamentally, 13 month salaries are a con - the company is trying to delay paying you wages which are yours until the last minute and wrap it up as a "bonus" to make you think they are being great...

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In that case, the Quellensteuer should be the same every month ?
No - it varies month by month, as the QS system does not know how much you will get paid, only how much you have been paid and how much you are being paid in the current month. Therefore, my understanding is that it works out and deducts contributions on a month-by-month basis, with the assumption that your salary is A x 12. Thus in a "bonus" month it is AA x 12...

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Although for locals, the point of saving up the extra is to pay the taxes...
And why does a company think it can do this better than the person who "owns" the money?

It is your money, not theirs - you get no benefit out of them keeping it for longer.
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:15
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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Thanks , yes my yearly salary is split into 13 ( it's not an extra month payment unfortunately !) and this month it seems I have been taxed on the rate of my earnings being double .. In fact this month im paying almost 2k in tax when id normally pay around 500chf....I will have to look into it
There is nothing to look into unfortunately. It's probably correct. Happened to me several times with a yearly bonus. You'll get it back eventually when you fill in a tax return for this year. Just a bit of a pisser you're a few grand down for months and months.
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:40
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

Quellensteuer tables are based on monthly income as if that was 1/12th your annual salary, so in the 13th month you will pay a lot more % tax.

This is very different from say UK PAYE which is cumulative.

If you do a tax return it balances out. If not it's tough: its a flaw in the system but no one seems too bothered to fix it since it means extra income for the state/canton whatever.
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:42
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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Quellensteuer tables are based on monthly income as if that was 1/12th your annual salary, so in the 13th month you will pay a lot more % tax.

This is very different from say UK PAYE which is cumulative.

If you do a tax return it balances out. If not it's tough: its a flaw in the system but no one seems too bothered to fix it since it means extra income for the state/canton whatever and mostly affects foreigners...
Added an important bit there...
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:44
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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Are all other permit B holders who pay Quellensteuer getting a considerably lower 13 month salary this month due to being charged more Quellensteuer ( in my case almost double )?
actually look carefully and make the total of salary earned for the year (ie add the 13th months) and compare the tax rate.

Now make the total of tax paid, and compare with the amount you should have paid for that tax rate...

if numbers match then it's not a mistake.
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:45
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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Added an important bit there...
Yes, it goes without saying.
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:48
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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I thought that too.

But I've also seen people posting to the effect that if you pay QS 1) you are not expected to do a tax return and 2) you are not allowed to...

I don't know if this is true of not, but if so it is Maybe there is a regional variation in this.

Fundamentally, 13 month salaries are a con - the company is trying to delay paying you wages which are yours until the last minute and wrap it up as a "bonus" to make you think they are being great...

No - it varies month by month, as the QS system does not know how much you will get paid, only how much you have been paid and how much you are being paid in the current month. Therefore, my understanding is that it works out and deducts contributions on a month-by-month basis, with the assumption that your salary is A x 12. Thus in a "bonus" month it is AA x 12...

And why does a company think it can do this better than the person who "owns" the money?

It is your money, not theirs - you get no benefit out of them keeping it for longer.

Does anyone really think it's a bonus? The Swiss certainly don't. And they like it because it gives them a lump sum to pay car/house, insurance, billag, etc for the year up front in one go. Also if they were not so prudent saving all the money for the taxes.

The Swiss are not like us. They don't like to pay things per month. Many still buy cars in cash.

This is certainly changing. The other day I was surprised to see a store really pushing installments on relatively small appliances. But it's changing slowly.
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:49
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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actually look carefully and make the total of salary earned for the year (ie add the 13th months) and compare the tax rate.

Now make the total of tax paid, and compare with the amount you should have paid for that tax rate...

if numbers match then it's not a mistake.
Unless you earn very little or very lots, you will be in the part of the tax table that has very high marginal rates, so you almost certain end up paying more with 13 salaries of which 2 in one month than with 12 salaries of the same amount spread across the year.
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:58
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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Does anyone really think it's a bonus? The Swiss certainly don't. And they like it because it gives them a lump sum to pay car/house, insurance, billag, etc for the year up front in one go. Also if they were not so prudent saving all the money for the taxes.

The Swiss are not like us. They don't like to pay things per month. Many still buy cars in cash.

This is certainly changing. The other day I was surprised to see a store really pushing installments on relatively small appliances. But it's changing slowly.
The question is how many Swiss are in the QS system?

Anyway, I'm not in the QS systmen, and I save a lump each month for taxes AND I pay for my cars in cash...
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Old 23.11.2012, 14:58
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Re: 13 month Quellensteuer shock !

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There are only 12 months in a year. I assume the tax office did a normal thing and assumed that, what with a year having 12 months, you'd get 12 monthly salaries.

As you seem to be getting 13, they may have suddenly realised your salary is higher than they thought, and hence have taxed you on it (in that one salary payment).
Yes as someone said earlier I think they is a sneaky thing here...
What matters is the "yearly salary"... Now it can be spread over 12 or 13 months, but the tax should be identical (in the "total").
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