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Old 17.01.2008, 10:00
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Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

Hello,

I have a complex question regarding the ability to set the cost
of house work against tax.

In general costs of maintenance of a house are tax deductable (there are
complex rules about percentages etc we shall ignore). A special rule
used to apply to renovations within the first 5 years of acquistion,
such that renovation works were not tax deductible. The idea was that the
buyer who bought a property in poor condition would be at an unfair advantage compared to a buyer who bought a property in good condition.
This, as I understand it, was called the Dumont ruling.

But I have read that different cantons apply this to
varying degrees, and also that there has been a loosening of the rule,
particularly with regard to Federal taxes. However, I remain
rather unclear regarding its application in practice. One of the key issues seems to be the difference between value-maintaining and value-enhancing works.

Lets take for example the issue of periodic rewiring of a house.
A long-term owner of the house can set the cost of this against
tax, it is part of normal maintenance. Within the first 5 years,
if this is performed, is it value enhancing? (It might well be life-saving).

Anyway, if anyone has a real understanding of this I would be grateful,
also if they know how the law is applied in Kanton Zurich that would be
helpful.

Many thanks
Andy
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Old 17.01.2008, 10:47
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

Well, I don't understand all of it and I never heard anything about this 5 year rule, even when we were looking at properties that needed renovation. We ended up buying a house that needs minor renovation (basically becuase I hate the 80's kitchen!

But from my understanding wiring, plumbing work IS tax deductible as this aids in maintaining the functioning of the house.

I vaguely remember there was a scale of how many years old things had to be (kitchen/bath/flooring, etc) before you could replace them.

Well, I'm also anxious to see more answers to this thread.
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Old 17.01.2008, 12:03
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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Well, I don't understand all of it and I never heard anything about this 5 year rule, even when we were looking at properties that needed renovation. We ended up buying a house that needs minor renovation (basically becuase I hate the 80's kitchen!

But from my understanding wiring, plumbing work IS tax deductible as this aids in maintaining the functioning of the house.

I vaguely remember there was a scale of how many years old things had to be (kitchen/bath/flooring, etc) before you could replace them.

Well, I'm also anxious to see more answers to this thread.
The primary consideration of the Dumont ruling is the state of the house after purchase and equality to purchasers. The principle used is that a house as a substantial structure should not be requiring maintenance in the first 5 years after purchase if it is well maintained. For tax claims for work performed within this 5 year period this ruling has often been quoted as a reason for rejection despite the fact Swiss law does not accord to Stare decisis.

Recently the federal court has ruled against the application of Dumont for the following situations:

The work cannot be delayed - ie it would be a danger or cause devaluation of the property.
The work does not lead to an increase in the letting cost.
There is no major structural work which causes a change in use.
The work maintains the property in its current condition in terms of rental agreements or usage.

If we discount the first point as obvious the remainders are basically stating that exceptions to the tax rule should not result in a monetary or usage benefit to the owner.

Looking at Kanton Zurich. They state that the Dumont ruling shall only apply to properties in a state of neglect. This means that if the property is "well maintained" and the work needs to be performed then it can be deducted from tax.

This might seem a bit daft as you would expect a property in a state of neglect to need additional work. However, what they are basically saying is that due to its condition the property has been acquired at a price that is under market and therefore renovating a house which requires renovating will increase the value of the property to market rate and therefore the owner will see a monetary gain. Hence not tax deductable.

Note also that if the property is relatively new ie under 5 years old then maintenance as a tax offset will generally be rejected as this should fall under a guarantee or insurance claim.
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Old 17.01.2008, 12:58
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

Thanks for your reply Richard.
However, I confess I remain non-the-wiser.

This seems to boil down to semantics. What is a state of neglect, and
who decides? Is it the cantonal tax office?

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Recently the federal court has ruled against the application of Dumont for the following situations:

The work cannot be delayed - ie it would be a danger or cause devaluation of the property.
The work does not lead to an increase in the letting cost.
There is no major structural work which causes a change in use.
The work maintains the property in its current condition in terms of rental agreements or usage.
You say that the first is obvious, but it seems important. Is 50-year-old
wiring dangerous? Who decides?

I cannot fathom how a house in a good state of repair at purchase needs
any renovation in the next 5 years that is not value-enhancing. Ok, a
device might break (washer, boiler) but otherwise anything like windows,
fascade, wiring, roof, gutters, heating etc could wait by a pure definition
of what is "a good state of repair".

Do you believe there is a differnece between application
for Fereral and Kanton taxes - see e.g.
http://www.hausinfo.ch/home/de/finan...ontpraxis.html

Many thanks,
Andy
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Old 17.01.2008, 13:46
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

50 year old wiring NEEDS to be replaced and should be tax deductible. When you buy your house (at least here in VD) you need to have the electricity checked to see that it is up to code/standard/etc.

I'm still convinced their is a guide to standard usage, ie how often kitchens/bathrooms are changed, etc. Or is this just commercial?
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Old 17.01.2008, 16:58
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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50 year old wiring NEEDS to be replaced and should be tax deductible. When you buy your house (at least here in VD) you need to have the electricity checked to see that it is up to code/standard/etc.
Do you have some justification for these comments? It's perfectly possible to install modern RCDs to bring older wiring up to modern safety standards.
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Old 17.01.2008, 17:13
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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50 year old wiring NEEDS to be replaced and should be tax deductible. When you buy your house (at least here in VD) you need to have the electricity checked to see that it is up to code/standard/etc.

I'm still convinced their is a guide to standard usage, ie how often kitchens/bathrooms are changed, etc. Or is this just commercial?
For rental purposes only to determine the charges that can be made for damages and for when the tenant can expect a reduced charge for old age or insist on new if it breaks etc
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Old 17.01.2008, 17:22
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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Thanks for your reply Richard.
However, I confess I remain non-the-wiser.

This seems to boil down to semantics. What is a state of neglect, and
who decides? Is it the cantonal tax office?


You say that the first is obvious, but it seems important. Is 50-year-old
wiring dangerous? Who decides?

I cannot fathom how a house in a good state of repair at purchase needs
any renovation in the next 5 years that is not value-enhancing. Ok, a
device might break (washer, boiler) but otherwise anything like windows,
fascade, wiring, roof, gutters, heating etc could wait by a pure definition
of what is "a good state of repair".

Do you believe there is a differnece between application
for Fereral and Kanton taxes - see e.g.
http://www.hausinfo.ch/home/de/finan...ontpraxis.html

Many thanks,
Andy
That is a pretty poor effort from Beobachter... While they are mainly right in what they are writing, the dumont ruling has been dismissed by the federal courts and is therefore no longer able to be quoted by lower courts as the reason for a rejection of claim.

If the wiring in your house does not meet the standards required today then you may replace it and you may claim this from your tax as a deduction. Note here, that if the house is 50 years old then there should have been renovations performed periodically. You need to find out when the last one or two were. If there have been none in the last 20 years then (theoretically) your house has not been well maintained and you are likely to have some problems trying to reclaim tax. It should have been marketed as needing renovation. Furthermore, IF there is a clearly visible way(fuses?) to see that the electrical circuit needing replacing when you bought the house then you are also here likely to fall upon deaf ears.

There is actually no simple answer to how this is handled. The best you can do is to have an electrician quote for the job and ask his advice on the best course of action ie does it need doing and in what time frame. Thereafter you can talk to the local "Gemeinde" and see if they will accept his advice.
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Old 17.01.2008, 19:28
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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Do you have some justification for these comments? It's perfectly possible to install modern RCDs to bring older wiring up to modern safety standards.
What do you want me to justify? The tax deductible issue or the change of the wires? Or that it needs to be inspected?

What I mean it that they need to be brought up to standard. So perhaps you don't have to change the whole thing but that's a technical issue that I don't know about.

In Vaud, you need to have the electricity checked when the house changes owners.

But whatever has to be changed in a 50 year old wiring system to bring it up to standard is tax deductible because it is maintenance and doesn't enhance the value of the house.
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Old 17.01.2008, 19:29
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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For rental purposes only to determine the charges that can be made for damages and for when the tenant can expect a reduced charge for old age or insist on new if it breaks etc
Do you think this guideline can be used as a clue as to when you can change you kitchen with a tax deduction?
(yes, I'm trying to justify changing my 21 year old kitchen!! Can you help me? )

Last edited by miniMia; 17.01.2008 at 19:44. Reason: clarity!
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Old 17.01.2008, 19:34
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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That is a pretty poor effort from Beobachter... While they are mainly right in what they are writing, the dumont ruling has been dismissed by the federal courts and is therefore no longer able to be quoted by lower courts as the reason for a rejection of claim.

If the wiring in your house does not meet the standards required today then you may replace it and you may claim this from your tax as a deduction. Note here, that if the house is 50 years old then there should have been renovations performed periodically. You need to find out when the last one or two were. If there have been none in the last 20 years then (theoretically) your house has not been well maintained and you are likely to have some problems trying to reclaim tax. It should have been marketed as needing renovation. Furthermore, IF there is a clearly visible way(fuses?) to see that the electrical circuit needing replacing when you bought the house then you are also here likely to fall upon deaf ears.

There is actually no simple answer to how this is handled. The best you can do is to have an electrician quote for the job and ask his advice on the best course of action ie does it need doing and in what time frame. Thereafter you can talk to the local "Gemeinde" and see if they will accept his advice.
Usually (around here) the ads for houses state the date of the last renovation and what was done at that time. Also, according to certain agents, the price was determined by this date of last renovation: ie. the value of the house was established by a secret formula (based on volume/land/where it is, etc) then a certain % was deducted for every year the house hadn't been renovated.
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Old 02.09.2008, 21:01
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

Hi

just a question on how that tax deduction works.....

If I spend say 100,000 on the rennovation, can i deduct this all in one year......

Thanks very much
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Old 20.02.2011, 20:13
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

Old thread, but want to start it again.

From what I can see online, the Dermot ruling was abolished in Zug in Jan 2010 (owned the house just 5 years now anyway).

What I need to know is, how much of a bathroom renovation can we deduct. The shower is broken and leaking, the toilet is calcified up and now both the double sinks are cracked. It is only 15 years old.

The total work we are doing is going to be a fair bit, so I assume that we have to do some work this year and then next year to be able to claim the total work done?
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Old 20.02.2011, 20:23
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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Old thread, but want to start it again.

From what I can see online, the Dermot ruling was abolished in Zug in Jan 2010 (owned the house just 5 years now anyway).

What I need to know is, how much of a bathroom renovation can we deduct. The shower is broken and leaking, the toilet is calcified up and now both the double sinks are cracked. It is only 15 years old.

The total work we are doing is going to be a fair bit, so I assume that we have to do some work this year and then next year to be able to claim the total work done?
I believe this has been abolished everywhere now. There were enough cases of "renovated" to sell where after two years everything needed replacing...

When you complete your tax return you maintain all the receipts you have. You then put this forward as renovation costs ie all of it assuming it does not then make your combined annual income negative.

The tax office will then bombard you with requests for information and assess this. You need to keep a note of how much of the total cost they allow. You then deduct this from the total you claimed and the difference is then added as increasing the captial of the house for when you sell it. This reduces your liability for capital gains.

If you do not try and claim everything, when you come to sell it they will say everything could have been claimed and there is no deduction possible against capital gains.

So in short claim it all and save whatever they dont allow for a rainy day when you sell the house.
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Old 20.02.2011, 20:33
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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I believe this has been abolished everywhere now. There were enough cases of "renovated" to sell where after two years everything needed replacing...

When you complete your tax return you maintain all the receipts you have. You then put this forward as renovation costs ie all of it assuming it does not then make your combined annual income negative.

The tax office will then bombard you with requests for information and assess this. You need to keep a note of how much of the total cost they allow. You then deduct this from the total you claimed and the difference is then added as increasing the captial of the house for when you sell it. This reduces your liability for capital gains.

If you do not try and claim everything, when you come to sell it they will say everything could have been claimed and there is no deduction possible against capital gains.

So in short claim it all and save whatever they don't allow for a rainy day when you sell the house.
I'm wondering if they will deny us claiming a new bathroom because it isn't old enough (only 15 years old).

We are adding an extra bedroom BUT that bedroom is already counted on the plans and what is registered at the Bauamt and there is no increase in the living area. I'm hoping this doesn't increase the asset value. I know that extensions and winter gardens are automatically classed as additions (adding to the value).
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Old 21.02.2011, 14:58
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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I'm wondering if they will deny us claiming a new bathroom because it isn't old enough (only 15 years old).

We are adding an extra bedroom BUT that bedroom is already counted on the plans and what is registered at the Bauamt and there is no increase in the living area. I'm hoping this doesn't increase the asset value. I know that extensions and winter gardens are automatically classed as additions (adding to the value).
Whenever there is an additional room to the house which it implies you are doing your house is revalued.

I would claim the bathroom and assume you get away with it. My bathroom was 30 years old and there were no questions. I have a book somewhere which lists down to the smallest thing how long between renovation is permitted. The problem is really that if the stuff is warn out due to lower quality or misuse the time goes quicker. Any money you spend in the house can be deducted directly from income tax or directly from capital gains when you sell. It is an either or equation.
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Old 21.02.2011, 14:59
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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Whenever there is an additional room to the house which it implies you are doing your house is revalued.

I would claim the bathroom and assume you get away with it. My bathroom was 30 years old and there were no questions. I have a book somewhere which lists down to the smallest thing how long between renovation is permitted. The problem is really that if the stuff is warn out due to lower quality or misuse the time goes quicker. Any money you spend in the house can be deducted directly from income tax or directly from capital gains when you sell. It is an either or equation.
I should have added that an additional room does not necessarily equate to an increase in the property value but it will change the house from x rooms to x+1 rooms. That obviously makes it more attractive to potential buyers who need more rooms.
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Old 21.02.2011, 15:03
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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Whenever there is an additional room to the house which it implies you are doing your house is revalued.

I would claim the bathroom and assume you get away with it. My bathroom was 30 years old and there were no questions. I have a book somewhere which lists down to the smallest thing how long between renovation is permitted. The problem is really that if the stuff is warn out due to lower quality or misuse the time goes quicker. Any money you spend in the house can be deducted directly from income tax or directly from capital gains when you sell. It is an either or equation.

Aren't there guidelines for the life expectancy of a renovation? For example, a kitchen is expected to last 10-15 years, or such?

Also, what is the impact of using more expensive materials on the valuation of the property, in cases when it isn't a new room? For example, some expensive slate flooring, instead of laminates.
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Old 21.02.2011, 20:28
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

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Whenever there is an additional room to the house which it implies you are doing your house is revalued.

I would claim the bathroom and assume you get away with it. My bathroom was 30 years old and there were no questions. I have a book somewhere which lists down to the smallest thing how long between renovation is permitted. The problem is really that if the stuff is warn out due to lower quality or misuse the time goes quicker. Any money you spend in the house can be deducted directly from income tax or directly from capital gains when you sell. It is an either or equation.
Thanks for that. A bit of a dumb question... But.... In terms of deductions on capital gains, do you mean you save up all your expenses over the years until you sell or only the expenses in the year you sell.
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Old 12.06.2011, 02:40
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Re: Tax, house renovation and Dumont praxis

Currently reviewing the contract on the house purchase and wondered what the pros/cons are of stating within the contract that "the property is in need of renovation"? Any views on whether it has a standing on deductibility or other consequences?
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