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  #41  
Old 22.10.2013, 13:34
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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Actually, they did. Apart from Native Americans everyone else's ancestors have "given up on their country" and moved to America. They didn't fight to change or improve things in the land of their birth, they left.

But this is getting off the subject of renunciations in Bern, procedure, time taken, etc. So back on topic please folks. Start another thread for discussions on immigration/citizenship and all things American.
Back then, it was impossible to have any influence on the nation that one left. In these digital days, one can happily renounce in Bern to become free while still supporting one's relatives across the seas. Personally, I think that the US is hopelessly lost, but I still enjoy supporting family and friends, even when such achieves nothing other than personal satisfaction.
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  #42  
Old 22.10.2013, 22:59
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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There are many things that I stay away because it would be way too complicated to do the taxes on them, so any gain would be offset by the taxes and preparation costs. Examples: foreign mutual funds including Pillar 3 retirement funds, owning a house in the USA, establishing a trust, having my own business.....etc
That's because of the "IRS Discount" that faces US multinationals and US citizens.

Just invert (multinational) or renounce (citizen) and problem solved!
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  #43  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:07
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

Are the US tax forms really so complicated that you can't fill them in yourself and have to pay thousands to an accountant??
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  #44  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:20
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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Are the US tax forms really so complicated that you can't fill them in yourself and have to pay thousands to an accountant??
They can be. Once you are resident overseas it doesn't take much to make for a very complicated return.

Our return is often 200+ pages.

More important: the penalties for making a mistake are mighty steep.
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  #45  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:20
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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Are the US tax forms really so complicated that you can't fill them in yourself and have to pay thousands to an accountant??
Try it. Here is a task:

The following link lists a Säule 3a and a Säule 3b Lebensversicherung:

https://www.allianz.ch/portal/site/a...005509a8c0RCRD

Your task is to find the proper form(s) to file correctly. To find the form, you may begin looking here: http://www.irs.gov/

If possible, please document the effort made and time used. Also take into consideration that accidentals might not speak any English, so one would have to navigate irs.gov in German. In the top right corner, one can select the language.


I'll give you two tips. German is not provided in the dropdown and such retirement insurance is a gray zone, meaning that its filing situation is undefined with no forms available, but no explanation explaining this.

Good luck! If you do not file correctly, you may be fined $100000 or more, as well as being thrown into jail for a few years. If lucky, one will get hanged.
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  #46  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:24
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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They can be. Once you are resident overseas it doesn't take much to make for a very complicated return.

Our return is often 200+ pages.
Mine was normally 7 or so (1040 + 2555).

Still too much for my taste, so I dumped it.

Tom
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  #47  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:27
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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Try it. Here is a task:

The following link lists a Säule 3a and a Säule 3b Lebensversicherung:

https://www.allianz.ch/portal/site/a...005509a8c0RCRD

Your task is to find the proper form(s) to file correctly. To find the form, you may begin looking here: http://www.irs.gov/

If possible, please document the effort made and time used. Also take into consideration that accidentals might not speak any English, so one would have to navigate irs.gov in German. In the top right corner, one can select the language.


I'll give you two tips. German is not provided in the dropdown and such retirement insurance is a gray zone, meaning that its filing situation is undefined with no forms available, but no explanation explaining this.

Good luck! If you do not file correctly, you may be fined $100000 or more, as well as being thrown into jail for a few years. If lucky, one will get hanged.
Calm down, I'm just asking.... not being American. For example UK tax returns can be done online on the HMRC website.

I don't understand the Allianz thing... why would US tax return forms be in German? Can you not get everything you need from the IRS?
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  #48  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:29
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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The only financial difference between being a US citizen or a non-US citizen, is that I spent $450 to renounce.
You did it too late, when I did it it was still free (in fact, the ONLY thing the US embassy has EVER done for me for free! )

Tom
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  #49  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:31
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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Calm down, I'm just asking.... not being American. For example UK tax returns can be done online on the HMRC website.

I don't understand the Allianz thing... why would US tax return forms be in German? Can you not get everything you need from the IRS?
Some individuals who are required to file do not speak any English, and thus it is impossible for them to file on their own. Yet, knowing English doesn't always help much either, since the logic written can be confusing, especially in an international environment.

The Allianz thing is basically two different methods of saving locally for retirement and retirement savings must be reported to the IRS, but some are gray zones with an undefined filing situation.
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  #50  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:35
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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the only thing that upsets dual citizens with US passports is the fact that the US passport comes with tax and disclosure obligations
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the only difference with the US is the taxation issue, which existed long before I was born and will not be changing anytime during my lifetime.
Nope, what bugged (and still bugs) me most was that I could only enter and leave with my US passport, and that sealed the deal.

Sure, I know people who enter and leave the US with Swiss or other passports, but I like to observe the law.

Tom
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  #51  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:35
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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You did it too late, when I did it it was still free (in fact, the ONLY thing the US embassy has EVER done for me for free! )

Tom
Well, I had to pay to renounce but at least they did let me into the embassy for free. In the future, they will be charging an entrance fee!
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  #52  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:44
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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Apart from Native Americans everyone else's ancestors have "given up on their country" and moved to America. They didn't fight to change or improve things in the land of their birth, they left.
Tell that to the founding fathers, most of whom were born in the US (physically, obviously it was still a bunch of slave colonies belonging to the limeys when they were born).

Tom
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  #53  
Old 22.10.2013, 23:46
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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Are the US tax forms really so complicated that you can't fill them in yourself and have to pay thousands to an accountant??
No, it generally took me about 1/2 an hour.

And I filed mine every year.

Tom
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  #54  
Old 23.10.2013, 00:01
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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Calm down, I'm just asking.... not being American. For example UK tax returns can be done online on the HMRC website.

I don't understand the Allianz thing... why would US tax return forms be in German? Can you not get everything you need from the IRS?
I am calm and sincere with a taste of humor (getting hanged).

I once called the IRS to inquire on the simple task of filing the 2nd Säule or 401K as the Americans call it. After being redirected around for an hour, they finally told me that someone would get back to me. About 2 months later, the IRS contacted me and explained to me how to file. The explanation was not quite clear, though, because it could mean one of several things. In any case, I filed the best that I could according to how I interpreted what I was told. Prior to that, I had always filed incorrectly without knowing it.

Another time, I called about filing the personal retirement savings, but I didn't understand what they were talking about. So, I called my bank (since they were busy trying to figure out FATCA) and they explained that it was a "gray zone" with an undefined filing situation. Shortly afterwards, I renounced, but I renounced because all of my local banks were rejecting US clients, not only because of the filing complications.

The benefit with gray zones is that one doesn't have to bother filing such. Yet, if the rules suddenly change, one won't know it until it is too late, and then one will likely lose more than half of the savings in penalties and legal fees.

Last edited by SwissPinoy; 23.10.2013 at 00:11.
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Old 08.01.2014, 23:53
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

There is an article in January's Annabelle magazine by a 27 year-old photographer who renounced her US citizenship. She wrote that due to a one-year wait list at the US Embassy in Bern that she went to another country to renounce. It's called "How is it really to voluntarily give up US citizenship":

http://www.annabelle.ch/leben/gesell...bzugeben-32028

She is sad because she felt that she was forced to renounce due to difficulties in getting banking services. She also said that US citizens are discriminated against in the job market.
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  #56  
Old 09.01.2014, 08:23
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

Yes, SwissPinoy posted it on IBS too the other day.

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/01/...ge-1/#comments

Interesting that the waiting list is now so long. I rang on the 28th January last year to arrange my appointment and got one for the first week in March so only a 5 week gap. So much for the "myth" that people aren't renouncing because of FATCA. What else could account for such an increase I ask Mr. Stack.
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  #57  
Old 09.01.2014, 10:55
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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So much for the "myth" that people aren't renouncing because of FATCA. What else could account for such an increase I ask Mr. Stack.
In September US Treasury posted a document called "Myth vs. FATCA: The Truth About Treasury's Effort to Combat Offshore Tax Evasion", written by Robert Stack, Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary. Here are two claims it makes:

"Myth No. 2: Some claim that U.S. citizens living overseas will become outcasts in the international financial world.

Myth No. 3: Some claim that Americans living abroad will give up their U.S. citizenship because of liabilities and burdens created by FATCA."

The 27 year-old photographer who wrote the Annabelle story states that she could not obtain banking services and therefore gave up her US citizenship. Should we conclude that she is a mythical person?

The US Treasury "Myth vs. FATCA" posting is rubbish and the Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary, Robert Stack, is a propagandist or an arrogant fool. Americans Citizens Abroad issued a polite rebuttal with a link to the US Treasury propaganda posting. I would not have been so kind:
http://americansabroad.org/issues/fa...ths-and-facts/
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  #58  
Old 09.01.2014, 12:01
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

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"Myth No. 2: Some claim that U.S. citizens living overseas will become outcasts in the international financial world."
Thinking about beefing up your UBS 3rd Pillar account with some shares?
Forget it.
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Units of this fund may not be offered, sold or delivered to US citizens, individuals
domiciled in the US and/or other natural persons or legal entities whose
income and/or earnings are subject to US income tax, regardless of source, as
well as persons who are considered to be US persons pursuant to regulation
S of the US Securities Act of 1933 and/or the US Commodity Exchange Act in
its most recent version.
www.ubs.com/2/e/files/ch_vitainvest_pech.pdf
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  #59  
Old 04.05.2014, 14:54
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

Bump.

Anyone done it this year? I am seriously leaning towards renunciation - I hope it's not a 1 year wait though..
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  #60  
Old 04.05.2014, 16:58
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Re: Renunciations in Bern

A friend of mine did it in Frankfurt. He had an
Appointment within a week.


It is just up the road.
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