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  #21  
Old 18.11.2013, 23:28
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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I also believe thats the wrong way to look at it, in retirement you will live for 25 years so your investment horizon is still long term, stay invested in equities for ever, your income & capital will still grow.
Fair point. But ask me when I retire how fit I am feeling... I'll then let you know whether I'll last those 25 years

Some people don't even make it to retirement...
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Old 19.11.2013, 01:33
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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Fair point. But ask me when I retire how fit I am feeling... I'll then let you know whether I'll last those 25 years

Some people don't even make it to retirement...
I plan to retire next year at 52, so potentially 35 years to live, inflation is my biggest risk so 90% equities 10 % cash.
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Old 21.11.2013, 13:18
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

The whole threat turns so much around the 1-2% interests for the 3rd pillar, while (to my knowledge) the real benefit of the 3rd pillar is on the (income) tax side.

You can deduct it from your taxable income now and pay income tax once you retire. In retirement you have (most probably) less income and a corresponding lower tax rate ... I think the benefit is obvious, but it is definitely not the 1-2% interest you get. Although, for risk free investment you will not get more elsewhere anyway at the moment.

How good the deal is for you depends on your current marginal tax rate ...
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Old 21.11.2013, 13:51
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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The whole threat turns so much around the 1-2% interests for the 3rd pillar, while (to my knowledge) the real benefit of the 3rd pillar is on the (income) tax side.

You can deduct it from your taxable income now and pay income tax once you retire. In retirement you have (most probably) less income and a corresponding lower tax rate ... I think the benefit is obvious, but it is definitely not the 1-2% interest you get. Although, for risk free investment you will not get more elsewhere anyway at the moment.

How good the deal is for you depends on your current marginal tax rate ...
Unfortunately you cannot predict what your future tax rate will be when you retire, with the change in demographics, relying on today's tax rates is nothing more than hope.
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Old 21.11.2013, 16:04
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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The whole threat turns so much around the 1-2% interests for the 3rd pillar, while (to my knowledge) the real benefit of the 3rd pillar is on the (income) tax side.

You can deduct it from your taxable income now and pay income tax once you retire. In retirement you have (most probably) less income and a corresponding lower tax rate ... I think the benefit is obvious, but it is definitely not the 1-2% interest you get. Although, for risk free investment you will not get more elsewhere anyway at the moment.

How good the deal is for you depends on your current marginal tax rate ...
The immediate tax deduction is great, but the longer you leave the money in the account, the less of a benefit you will have. Imagine for a minute you have 6700 CHF that you have lying around at age 30. Say, you live in a high tax town and have a 40% marginal rate.

Pillar 3:
invest all of the money tax free in a bank account earning 2%...after 30 years you would have 12,136 CHF....then you would have to pay taxes on that and have even less left over

Take the tax hit immediately and invest in an index fund

You start off with 4020 CHF. Lets say a conservative 30 year growth rate of 4%. You would end up with 13,038 CHF...and it would be all yours to keep because you paid the tax and capital gains are tax free

Now, if I were 55 or buying a house imminently I would prefer Pillar 3
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Old 21.11.2013, 16:22
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

What about for someone that is planning on leaving during 2014 (to an EU country)?
I think in such a case it makes sense to make maximum Pillar 3a contributions during 2013 and 2014, even if the tax rate is fairly low, then take the money (under CHF 14000) out during 2015 when there won't be other Swiss income to be taxed other than the lump sum withdrawn.

Also, given the short time period it would be best to go for the safe, low return type as if there is a crash it would be annoying.
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Old 21.11.2013, 16:27
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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What about for someone that is planning on leaving during 2014 (to an EU country)?
I think it is the same if one were to leave for a non-EU country too?

I always thought that the tax rate we are going to pay when leaving (taking the money out) is lower than the tax we saved each year, and we can move the fund to a low tax canton - this is why Pillar 3 makes sense....if you are going to leave one day in the near future....But if it is really for the retirement, maybe there are other ways to generate higher return but they are not (almost) risk free as Pillar 3a.
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Old 21.11.2013, 16:31
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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I think it is the same if one were to leave for a non-EU country too?

I always thought that the tax rate we are going to pay when leaving (taking the money out) is lower than the tax we saved each year, and we can move the fund to a low tax canton - this is why Pillar 3 makes sense....if you are going to leave one day in the near future....But if it is really for the retirement, maybe there are other ways to generate higher return but they are not (almost) risk free as Pillar 3a.
I think when leaving, for pillar 3a it doesn't matter if it is EU or non-EU, but the OP worded things in a way that it wasn't 100% clear on this respect. For the other pillars it does matter as far as I know (non-EU can also cash out other pillars, whereas EU ones usually won't be able to).

About the tax on cashing out the pillar 3a being lower, I read around the forum some of these comments about lower tax rates, but on the other thread I think it was FMF that posted that the lower tax cantons also charge a fee for opening pillar 3a accounts, and that moving one to a different canton after opening also costs cash, so I'm a bit confused on how to proceed and what are the options. Can a Basel person open a Pillar 3a account in a different canton from the outset?

Here is the other thread:
Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

Unfortunately I think I will only get tax clarification in January (rather than November), and I am not sure how much I will learn either... So I think I will need to decide if I want to put the contribution for 2013 before that.
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Old 21.11.2013, 16:49
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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What about for someone that is planning on leaving during 2014 (to an EU country)?
I think in such a case it makes sense to make maximum Pillar 3a contributions during 2013 and 2014, even if the tax rate is fairly low, then take the money (under CHF 14000) out during 2015 when there won't be other Swiss income to be taxed other than the lump sum withdrawn.

Also, given the short time period it would be best to go for the safe, low return type as if there is a crash it would be annoying.
1) If you are leaving then it would be a very good thing to put money into a Pillar 3 account. You can definitely take it out when moving to an EU country.

2) As far as taking it out in 2015, you don't need to be concerned about having other Swiss income. It wont affect the taxes on Pillar 3. The taxes on income are separately calculated than the taxes on "Kapital". Plus its to your advantage to get the money before establishing residency in the new EU country because then you will likely have to pay taxes to the new country (minus the Swiss taxes)
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Old 21.11.2013, 17:08
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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Can a Basel person open a Pillar 3a account in a different canton from the outset?

Here is the other thread:
Pillar 3 - does it make sense?

Unfortunately I think I will only get tax clarification in January (rather than November), and I am not sure how much I will learn either... So I think I will need to decide if I want to put the contribution for 2013 before that.
So for 2nd pillar, I think one can transfer the fund to a Freizügigkeitskonto before cashing out. The tax rate to be paid is then the one the institution is based in.

I am not sure if the same thing applies for 3rd pillar too?

And one more thing, I think if one is to leave the country half way of a year but he does the contribution in full early of the year, he will get less tax return (as he only works for the couple of months during the year), but will he be taxed fully if he withdraws? If yes then the tax saving could not offset the tax to be paid...

p/s: You mean contribution for 2014, don't you?
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Old 21.11.2013, 23:23
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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The immediate tax deduction is great, but the longer you leave the money in the account, the less of a benefit you will have. Imagine for a minute you have 6700 CHF that you have lying around at age 30. Say, you live in a high tax town and have a 40% marginal rate.

Pillar 3:
invest all of the money tax free in a bank account earning 2%...after 30 years you would have 12,136 CHF....then you would have to pay taxes on that and have even less left over

Take the tax hit immediately and invest in an index fund

You start off with 4020 CHF. Lets say a conservative 30 year growth rate of 4%. You would end up with 13,038 CHF...and it would be all yours to keep because you paid the tax and capital gains are tax free

Now, if I were 55 or buying a house imminently I would prefer Pillar 3
Restating my earlier post, I still don't understand the confusion about Pillar 3a. The above scenario compares chalk (cash rate of <2%) with cheese (equity funds with high rates of return). You are not obliged to invest only in cash at miserable rates. You can invest all of your Pillar 3a savings in equities, if you wish.

That means you can get the same returns (actually even better since Pillar 3a funds are usually fee-free, leaving another 2% for investment) with Pillar 3a as for non-tax-sheltered equity fund investments, but with large tax deductions for Pillar 3a. Tax payable upon withdrawal is at a concessional rate -- less than the tax deduction received at the outset.

It's a no-brainer, for me anyway.

Last edited by 22 yards; 21.11.2013 at 23:45. Reason: Removed redundant punctuation.
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Old 21.11.2013, 23:31
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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You are not obliged to invest only in cash at miserable rates. You can invest all of your Pillar 3a savings in equities, if you wish.
Great point, thanks!

Tom
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Old 22.11.2013, 00:51
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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Unfortunately you cannot predict what your future tax rate will be when you retire, with the change in demographics, relying on today's tax rates is nothing more than hope.
I didnt say that one can predict the Future tax rate, but I can predict with 99% certainty that I will have less income when I retire, compared to what I earn now. I do not count on a lottery win at 65.

The future is anyway full of hope, otherwise I would not have to worry about any pillar 1,2,3 for my retirement at all. I might be dead by then.
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Old 22.11.2013, 07:40
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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Restating my earlier post, I still don't understand the confusion about Pillar 3a. The above scenario compares chalk (cash rate of <2%) with cheese (equity funds with high rates of return). You are not obliged to invest only in cash at miserable rates. You can invest all of your Pillar 3a savings in equities, if you wish.

That means you can get the same returns (actually even better since Pillar 3a funds are usually fee-free, leaving another 2% for investment) with Pillar 3a as for non-tax-sheltered equity fund investments, but with large tax deductions for Pillar 3a. Tax payable upon withdrawal is at a concessional rate -- less than the tax deduction received at the outset.

It's a no-brainer, for me anyway.
Yes you can invest in the funds and likely will get a better rate than cash. I personally despise the pillar 3 funds because the banks charge such high fees for them. Also if you are an American citizen, these kinds of funds also involve PFIC reporting which makes the funds worthless....
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Old 22.11.2013, 08:34
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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I didnt say that one can predict the Future tax rate, but I can predict with 99% certainty that I will have less income when I retire, compared to what I earn now. I do not count on a lottery win at 65.

The future is anyway full of hope, otherwise I would not have to worry about any pillar 1,2,3 for my retirement at all. I might be dead by then.
Can you say with certanty where you will be living in retirement, in many countries tax around 40% kicks in quite low & cash lump sums could be taxable in addition to the tax paid in CH
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Old 22.11.2013, 11:12
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

Another point that I can't see anyone has mentioned here (and that I wasn't aware of myself until recently) is that if you open a 3a account with a miniscule interest rate this year, you are not locked into the same account (with the same miniscule interest rate) until you retire. You can move your 3a pot(s) around if you see fit (e.g. someone offers a better interest rate, or you decide to change the investment structure).

see here: http://en.comparis.ch/banken/vorsorg...-wechseln.aspx
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Old 22.11.2013, 11:22
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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Another point that I can't see anyone has mentioned here (and that I wasn't aware of myself until recently) is that if you open a 3a account with a miniscule interest rate this year, you are not locked into the same account (with the same miniscule interest rate) until you retire. You can move your 3a pot(s) around if you see fit (e.g. someone offers a better interest rate, or you decide to change the investment structure).

see here: http://en.comparis.ch/banken/vorsorg...-wechseln.aspx
not sure i'd want to invest in an institution called 'corner bank' :P
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Old 22.11.2013, 11:28
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

I wasn't aware Kapital was taxed separately. I am on Quellensteuer and know little about the tax system in part due to that. Thanks for the info. Then it is probably better to cash out in 2014 as I would only be living in the new country for 3 months and I most likely count as taxable in Switzerland.

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And one more thing, I think if one is to leave the country half way of a year but he does the contribution in full early of the year, he will get less tax return (as he only works for the couple of months during the year), but will he be taxed fully if he withdraws? If yes then the tax saving could not offset the tax to be paid...

p/s: You mean contribution for 2014, don't you?
I meant 2013, I haven't made the pillar 3a as I arrived this year as well. I was counting on having an expert tell me more about the tax system in November, but as the event I can attend is only in 2014 then I have to decide for or against the Pillar 3a before that.

I don't know how it works, but certainly you won't be able to deduct more than the tax you pay, so if you only work a couple of months possibly your deductions are extremely small and your tax rate is also not very large so it might not be worth it anymore. I don't think it matters is when you do the pillar 3a as long as it is within the year, because you only get the deduction after you do your tax return / tax correction form.
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Old 22.11.2013, 13:48
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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Yes you can invest in the funds and likely will get a better rate than cash. I personally despise the pillar 3 funds because the banks charge such high fees for them. Also if you are an American citizen, these kinds of funds also involve PFIC reporting which makes the funds worthless....
You nay have missed the bit in my last post where I referred to the fact that no fees are charged on Pillar 3a accounts --at least, not at my bank, which is renowned for its otherwise widespread gouging of fees from customers. No entry fee (usually 2%), no administration fee (usually 0.14%), and there is no exit fee anyway. Of course the individual fund managers make commissions, etc., but these are included in the published returns of the fund and are not charged directly to the investor. My Pillar 3a fund is invested 45% in equities (the rest in cash and bonds) and returned NET just over 12% over the last year. This gets reinvested free of tax.

Because there are no fees, I am free to change my investment strategy (i.e. adopt different risk/yield profiles) as often as I like. Happy days,

I can't comment on issues for American investors as, happily, I'm not from those parts. As far as I understand it, American citizens are basically screwed when it comes to investing in Switzerland.
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Old 22.11.2013, 14:01
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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You nay have missed the bit in my last post where I referred to the fact that no fees are charged on Pillar 3a accounts --at least, not at my bank, which is renowned for its otherwise widespread gouging of fees from customers. No entry fee (usually 2%), no administration fee (usually 0.14%), and there is no exit fee anyway. Of course the individual fund managers make commissions, etc., but these are included in the published returns of the fund and are not charged directly to the investor. My Pillar 3a fund is invested 45% in equities (the rest in cash and bonds) and returned NET just over 12% over the last year. This gets reinvested free of tax.

Because there are no fees, I am free to change my investment strategy (i.e. adopt different risk/yield profiles) as often as I like. Happy days,

I can't comment on issues for American investors as, happily, I'm not from those parts. As far as I understand it, American citizens are basically screwed when it comes to investing in Switzerland.
I think you will find the expenses of the fund is a couple of percent, fund managers are never free it's just hidden.

12% over 1 year, is severe underperformance for a fund invested 45% in global equates in todays market, however on a par with other poorly performing Swiss pension funds. The investments have just increased in value, rather than being 'reinvested' free of tax, there is no CGT to pay in any case for a Swiss resident.

Just done the calculation of Tax saved on a pension I took out in the UK in 1982-1990. Tax saved approx £2500, the fund has grown 7 fold to date, by aged 60 it will be worth 10-15 times original investment. I can't see the final tax liability being less than £10k, wherever I live probably nearer £25k or 10 times what I originally saved. I could have invested this in the UK either in PEPS or by taking advantage of CGT allowances & never paid any further tax. The additional hidden management charges have also has a huge negative effect.

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 22.11.2013 at 14:11.
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