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  #41  
Old 22.11.2013, 14:03
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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Another point that I can't see anyone has mentioned here (and that I wasn't aware of myself until recently) is that if you open a 3a account with a miniscule interest rate this year, you are not locked into the same account (with the same miniscule interest rate) until you retire. You can move your 3a pot(s) around if you see fit (e.g. someone offers a better interest rate, or you decide to change the investment structure).

see here: http://en.comparis.ch/banken/vorsorg...-wechseln.aspx
Good point.

It's also worth noting that you are entitled to open as many Pillar 3a accounts as you like (respecting the annual contribution limits). Indeed, you should open multiple accounts, for two reasons:

- to diversify your investment strategy (choose different investment options for each account);
- to allow you to spread your income when you retire (or use the money for a permitted purpose such as buying a house). When you withdraw money from your Pillar 3a account, you have to withdraw the entire balance. So if you have 30 years' worth of contributions plus earnings in one Pillar 3a account, you would have to withdraw (and pay tax on) the whole lot (CHF 325,000, very roughly, assuming 3% annual growth). Having several accounts allows you to.split the withdrawals.

Last edited by 22 yards; 24.11.2013 at 00:44. Reason: Making a point
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  #42  
Old 22.11.2013, 14:14
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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I think you will find the expenses of the fund is a couple of percent, fund managers are never free it's just hidden.

12% over 1 year, is severe underperformance for a fund invested 45% in global equates in todays market, however on a par with other poorly performing Swiss pension funds.
As I said, of course commissions are taken; these are "hidden" in the net return. What is NOT charged is the 2% bank fee (for doing almost nothing) to which you also refer.

I lolled at your suggestion of underperformance. The fund's equity investment is heavily weighted toward Swiss equities (70% vs 30% global) -- that's my choice -- and comfortably beat the index. By comparison, a similar non-tax-sheltered fund invested 40% in equities yielded just over 8% over the same period, in line with the index.

Sure, you can get superior returns, but you'll have to bear much higher risk. I'm happy with 12%, especially when inflation is at or below 0%.
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Old 23.11.2013, 15:37
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

My opinion is that this is a good way to save your money for retirement. You save in tax and still can diversify the investment.
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  #44  
Old 23.11.2013, 18:09
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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You nay have missed the bit in my last post where I referred to the fact that no fees are charged on Pillar 3a accounts --at least, not at my bank, which is renowned for its otherwise widespread gouging of fees from customers. No entry fee (usually 2%), no administration fee (usually 0.14%), and there is no exit fee anyway. Of course the individual fund managers make commissions, etc., but these are included in the published returns of the fund and are not charged directly to the investor. My Pillar 3a fund is invested 45% in equities (the rest in cash and bonds) and returned NET just over 12% over the last year. This gets reinvested free of tax.

Because there are no fees, I am free to change my investment strategy (i.e. adopt different risk/yield profiles) as often as I like. Happy days,

I can't comment on issues for American investors as, happily, I'm not from those parts. As far as I understand it, American citizens are basically screwed when it comes to investing in Switzerland.
Mind to share the 3a fund you have chosen? I am concerned about the high bank fees (comparatively, if the market is no longer bullish). The return for this year maybe high but the average return over the last 10 years shows other picture, doesn't it?

And if you need to leave the country and take the money out, it may not be so straightforward to get rid of a 3a fund, is it? I know we can wait till the market turns better though....
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Old 24.11.2013, 18:32
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

Say that, despite all the info in the thread about investing in higher interest options, I want to open (for the first time) a 3rd pillar account.

I checked in comparis for the higher interest rate and I got this:

Cornèr Bank SA Cornèr 3rd Pillar 1.850%
Banque CIC (SUISSE) retirement account 3a 1.800%
Banca dello Stato del Cantone Ticino Conto Risparmio 3 1.750%
BPS (Suisse) Life Benefit 1.750%
etc

I have also read that you can change the bank/insurance where you keep your 3rd pillar account at any time.

My questions are:

- Can you open a 3rd pillar account ONLY (that is, having no more accounts) at any bank/insurance? If you do so, do you have to pay extra fees for not being a customer of normal banking?
- Can you really change when the interest rate is better at another entity? Are there fees for doing such a change?
- Is there any additional, hidden point that I am missing? If it were so easy, then everyone would move their money to the best payer, right?

Thanks!
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  #46  
Old 26.11.2013, 11:52
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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Mind to share the 3a fund you have chosen? I am concerned about the high bank fees (comparatively, if the market is no longer bullish). The return for this year maybe high but the average return over the last 10 years shows other picture, doesn't it?

And if you need to leave the country and take the money out, it may not be so straightforward to get rid of a 3a fund, is it? I know we can wait till the market turns better though....
UBS Vitainvest 40 World. As I said before, no bank fees. Of course the average return varies over different time periods -- if you pick the "right" period the return is negative -- but over ten years the return is still robust (40% total growth -- you can work out the annual average return), and certainly higher than savings rates over the same period. The average return over the last five years has been 5.15% p.a.

If you *need* to withdraw your money, then obviously it will be at the mercy of the markets at that time. It is entirely straightforward -- it takes about three days to cash your fund in -- but you need to pick a time when the fund value is high. If you know years in advance when you will want your money, you can plan accordingly -- e.g. convert your equity funds into cash (in miserable-rate savings) under the Pillar 3a umbrella while the markets are high and the equity fund values are high. Like now.

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Say that, despite all the info in the thread about investing in higher interest options, I want to open (for the first time) a 3rd pillar account.

I checked in comparis for the higher interest rate and I got this:

Cornèr Bank SA Cornèr 3rd Pillar 1.850%
Banque CIC (SUISSE) retirement account 3a 1.800%
Banca dello Stato del Cantone Ticino Conto Risparmio 3 1.750%
BPS (Suisse) Life Benefit 1.750%
etc

I have also read that you can change the bank/insurance where you keep your 3rd pillar account at any time.

My questions are:

- Can you open a 3rd pillar account ONLY (that is, having no more accounts) at any bank/insurance? If you do so, do you have to pay extra fees for not being a customer of normal banking?
- Can you really change when the interest rate is better at another entity? Are there fees for doing such a change?
- Is there any additional, hidden point that I am missing? If it were so easy, then everyone would move their money to the best payer, right?

Thanks!
1. Yes. Should be no extra fees.
2. Yes, and should be no fees. Check with your preferred provider.
3. You're not missing anything. People are inherently lazy.

Again, you are not obliged to invest in the low-rate savings accounts. If you can stomach the risk (which, over the long term, is mitigated somewhat), you can invest in other funds for much higher returns.

Last edited by 22 yards; 26.11.2013 at 12:04. Reason: Added 5-year average return.
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  #47  
Old 28.11.2013, 15:43
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

There were some earlier comments that cashing out Pillar 3a fund(s) incurs a tax that is separate from the regular salary income, so that when leaving to an EU country the best time to cash out would probably be while one is still tax resident in Switzerland. Therefore one shouldn't even count the full tax saving when calculating how much one "saves" by opening the third pillar, as some of that will have to be paid back when cashing out.

Does anyone know where I can find the tax rates that apply to cashing out the Pillar 3a? Is this the Kapital tax? As I am on Quellensteuer, I'm a bit ignorant about the whole thing, but I think this is also Kanton dependent?
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Old 28.11.2013, 18:55
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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There were some earlier comments that cashing out Pillar 3a fund(s) incurs a tax that is separate from the regular salary income, so that when leaving to an EU country [...]
"You can’t cash it out until you retire without paying major penalties and tax, except to buy your main residence (and NOT a secondary residence) or to permanently leave CH for a non-EU country."

source: http://www.expatious.com/guides/swit...uide-language/

In short: if you leave for a EU country, you will have to wait until you are retired to be able to cash out (without major panalties & tax).
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  #49  
Old 28.11.2013, 19:19
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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In short: if you leave for a EU country, you will have to wait until you are retired to be able to cash out (without major panalties & tax).
You may be able to take cash in full if insurance is not mandatory in the country your going to. http://www.sfbvg.ch/xml_1/internet/E...cation/f68.cfm
http://www.chaeis.net/en/fzk-vested-...migration.html
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Old 29.11.2013, 00:54
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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You may be able to take cash in full if insurance is not mandatory in the country your going to. http://www.sfbvg.ch/xml_1/internet/E...cation/f68.cfm
http://www.chaeis.net/en/fzk-vested-...migration.html
You are completely correct. I looked on the contract proposed by PostFinance & Raiffeisen & it is NEVER specified that you need to move outside EU.

https://www.postfinance.ch/content/d...3a_form_en.pdf

http://www.raiffeisen.ch/raiffeisen/internet/docs.nsf/$UNID/A4F2D8FF3293052BC1257A78002A973E/$FILE/VP3-Vorsorgevereinbarung_f.pdf

Hence I got my answer: 3rd pillar does make sense in 2013 if I plan to leave Switzerland soonish (wherever I go) as I'll be able to: get the income tax returned on what I put on the 3rd pillar & get all that money I saved (+ around 2% accumulated interested) back. Happy days :-)
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Old 29.11.2013, 01:01
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

For info, here are all the conditions from PostFinance contract regarding "early withdrawal & termination of the account"

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Old 29.11.2013, 10:38
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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You are completely correct. I looked on the contract proposed by PostFinance & Raiffeisen & it is NEVER specified that you need to move outside EU.

Hence I got my answer: 3rd pillar does make sense in 2013 if I plan to leave Switzerland soonish (wherever I go) as I'll be able to: get the income tax returned on what I put on the 3rd pillar & get all that money I saved (+ around 2% accumulated interested) back. Happy days :-)
You already noticed, even in the link you gave earlier it says one condition to get a payout of the third pillar is "if you leave Switzerland for good".

But still you forget a factor that I don't yet know how much it counts for: you get the income tax returned, get all the money saved + around 2% (or more if you risk it and goes well, or less if you risk it and goes bad) MINUS whatever tax you pay on payout. And this tax is what I want to know how much it is.
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Old 29.11.2013, 10:45
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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You already noticed, even in the link you gave earlier it says one condition to get a payout of the third pillar is "if you leave Switzerland for good".

But still you forget a factor that I don't yet know how much it counts for: you get the income tax returned, get all the money saved + around 2% (or more if you risk it and goes well, or less if you risk it and goes bad) MINUS whatever tax you pay on payout. And this tax is what I want to know how much it is.
The tax is dependent on where you live at the time, if you leave CH it's the tax where the fund is based.
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Old 29.11.2013, 10:58
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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The tax is dependent on where you live at the time, if you leave CH it's the tax where the fund is based.
I found this info in English:
https://www.ch.ch/en/3rd-pillar/

"If you withdraw funds from a 3rd pillar pension plan before you reach the official retirement age, these will be taxed at a much lower rate and separately from other income. There is a one-off tax which corresponds to the amount that you would pay in one year on this income."

My situation could be for example that I pay in for 2013 and 2014, move away in the end of 2014 and withdraw either one or two of my payments. If the above is correct, I automatically pay less tax than I got back initially as the tax payed is separate from all other income I had in 2014 and emulates what I would pay if I only received the pillar 3a as salary (in fact I would only get the tax payed back for the 2014 payment in 2015 I believe, when the tax correction is done).
I find this a bit hard to believe as my salary here (which is lower than the mythical 120k a year often talked about) already pays a rather small income tax rate, under 10% actually (at least IMO, but I'm used to other countries income tax rates). I'm worried that I will actually shoot myself in the foot and pay more tax for withdrawing the Pillar 3a than I get back from putting the money in!

I will see if at the bank they can clarify the rules. I don't suppose the official legislation comes in an English version, just German, French, Italian?
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Old 29.11.2013, 11:16
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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I found this info in English:
https://www.ch.ch/en/3rd-pillar/

"If you withdraw funds from a 3rd pillar pension plan before you reach the official retirement age, these will be taxed at a much lower rate and separately from other income. There is a one-off tax which corresponds to the amount that you would pay in one year on this income."

My situation could be for example that I pay in for 2013 and 2014, move away in the end of 2014 and withdraw either one or two of my payments. If the above is correct, I automatically pay less tax than I got back initially as the tax payed is separate from all other income I had in 2014 and emulates what I would pay if I only received the pillar 3a as salary (in fact I would only get the tax payed back for the 2014 payment in 2015 I believe, when the tax correction is done).
I find this a bit hard to believe as my salary here (which is lower than the mythical 120k a year often talked about) already pays a rather small income tax rate, under 10% actually (at least IMO, but I'm used to other countries income tax rates). I'm worried that I will actually shoot myself in the foot and pay more tax for withdrawing the Pillar 3a than I get back from putting the money in!

I will see if at the bank they can clarify the rules. I don't suppose the official legislation comes in an English version, just German, French, Italian?
The tax liability where you move to could be the killer......you don't get the money till after you leave, so Swiss tax is potentially not the only tax you will pay.
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Old 29.11.2013, 11:21
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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The tax liability where you move to could be the killer......you don't get the money till after you leave, so Swiss tax is potentially not the only tax you will pay.
I think it will be the UK. I need to check but I think that as long as I live for over 183 days in Switzerland in 2014 I wouldn't have to pay tax on it on the UK - if the cash arrives in 2014. If it is taxed in 2015, then I'm probably shooting myself in the foot.
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Old 29.11.2013, 11:35
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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I think it will be the UK. I need to check but I think that as long as I live for over 183 days in Switzerland in 2014 I wouldn't have to pay tax on it on the UK - if the cash arrives in 2014. If it is taxed in 2015, then I'm probably shooting myself in the foot.
UK tax year starts 6th April.
If you come to live in the UK, job for example, you will be tax resident from the day you arrive. Split year basis.
I do not know how the UK deals with this so you need to speak to a UK based account.
I also believe you can fully cash in your Pillar 2 as the UK does not require compulsory insurance.
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Old 29.11.2013, 11:39
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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UK tax year starts 6th April.
If you come to live in the UK, job for example, you will be tax resident from the day you arrive. Split year basis.
I do not know how the UK deals with this so you need to speak to a UK based account.
I also believe you can fully cash in your Pillar 2 as the UK does not require compulsory insurance.
The pillar 2 thing is an interesting thing I didn't suspect. Thanks.

I think I better not risk the Pillar 3a. My income rate is not very high. I'll try to find out more.
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Old 29.01.2014, 10:29
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

An update on my part: I went to this welcoming event in Basel and there was a tax person there. I asked some questions, the lady said that there is a bunch of information on their (Basel S. canton) website and they have several English speaking people so one can give them a phone call or by e-mail and they will probably be able to help and clarify.

One thing I did learn (unrelated with pillar 3) is that they apparently decide the tax rate on a monthly basis. For e.g. if you arrive in December and only earn one month in that year, you get taxed on that paltry income with the same tax rate % as if you had earned that amount each month.
I have the impression most countries tax annually, so if you only earned 1 month salary in the whole year you would get a much smaller tax rate.
Just some curiosity.
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Old 29.01.2014, 11:09
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Re: Does it now (2013) make sense to open a third pillar 3a account?

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An update on my part: I went to this welcoming event in Basel and there was a tax person there. I asked some questions, the lady said that there is a bunch of information on their (Basel S. canton) website and they have several English speaking people so one can give them a phone call or by e-mail and they will probably be able to help and clarify.

One thing I did learn (unrelated with pillar 3) is that they apparently decide the tax rate on a monthly basis. For e.g. if you arrive in December and only earn one month in that year, you get taxed on that paltry income with the same tax rate % as if you had earned that amount each month.
I have the impression most countries tax annually, so if you only earned 1 month salary in the whole year you would get a much smaller tax rate.
Just some curiosity.
yes, this annualising of income for the tax rate has caught out many people.
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