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  #61  
Old 02.02.2015, 22:41
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Re: CH banking is awful

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I just realized that it is not possible to pay for a rent apartment via credit cards (neither e-banking nor multimat). The only way is to pay via Maestro debit card.

I do not understand a reason.
Because they want you to pay real money, rather than rack up debt?

Tom
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  #62  
Old 03.02.2015, 12:22
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Re: CH banking is awful

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Because they want you to pay real money, rather than rack up debt?

Tom
Ok, but why then they allow to do online shopping with credit cards, for example? What is the difference between paying for rent an apartment and buying of clothes?
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  #63  
Old 03.02.2015, 12:29
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Re: CH banking is awful

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Ok, but why then they allow to do online shopping with credit cards, for example? What is the difference between paying for rent an apartment and buying of clothes?
Because online retailers are set up to deal with credit card payments, your average landlord more than likely isn't.
Rent is a monthly expense that you should be able to pay for without resorting to a credit card.
Buying clothes online is a one off occasional thing for most people and paying by credit card may just be more convenient although there are always other options.

It would never have entered my head to pay for my rent by credit card and I have never seen the option to do so in any of the countries I've lived in.

Last edited by Belgianmum; 03.02.2015 at 12:49. Reason: Typo
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  #64  
Old 03.02.2015, 12:30
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Re: CH banking is awful

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Ok, but why then they allow to do online shopping with credit cards, for example? What is the difference between paying for rent an apartment and buying of clothes?

The difference is rent is a fixed monthly cost and buying clothes is not a fixed monthly cost.
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  #65  
Old 03.02.2015, 20:29
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Re: CH banking is awful

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Which would mean people overpay. Move ahead and look for less expensive providers
I've always wondered why some expect for any provider to become more competitive when there's no pressure.
Well, you and I can agree that we'd like to see banks being more competitive in offering a better service to bank customers - and that customers should perhaps be more willing to change banks to demand it. In practice, I'm not sure customers do act in that way and I'm not sure that account pricing alone is or should be the biggest driver.

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Did you verify that claim? Or is it maybe born from ignorance?
Ouch. Stepping back for a moment, my point is that consumer usage of instant payment services (by mobile, contactless cards, NFC) has seen massive global growth (from M-Pesa in Kenya through to Starbucks payment app - there are platforms in CH being developed / operational). It's a move away from having to carry cash and offers great convenience for customers / individuals / retailers etc. Expecting easy real-time payment by electronic means is the new rage the world over...

Interestingly, it has not generally been traditional banks taking the lead (although you'd hopefully welcome the competition that these other payment services provide in pushing them to innovate to benefit their customers). The next few years are likely to see bank customers in Switzerland and elsewhere in Europe benefiting from (i) the push from regulators (think about SEPA - the development of which Switzerland has been a part) to standardise processing systems, lower fees, improve transfer times and (ii) the massive investment which interbank clearing houses like SIX are making in upgrading their technology (SIC) as demand for real-time processing increases. Even the traditional orange payment slips here in CH are likely to change within the next 2-3 years with QR codes becoming more common.

So, as a banking customer here in Switzerland, am I satisfied with a 1-2 day delay in inter-account transfers within Switzerland (I'm thinking of PostFinance, but even UBS sets an early afternoon cut-off time)? No. Do I think this is going to change over the next few years with much faster payment times and at lower (or no) per transaction cost? Yes. Are some countries ahead of others in adopting faster payment technology? Yes. Is it a reasonable assumption that bank customers in Switzerland will welcome this? I think so (after all, it is the efficient transfer of their money which is at issue). Is there likely to be a generational gap in how cash v electronic wallets are used? Possibly. Do I have too much interest in this topic? Probably
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  #66  
Old 04.02.2015, 01:59
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Re: CH banking is awful

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I just realized that it is not possible to pay for a rent apartment via credit cards (neither e-banking nor multimat). The only way is to pay via Maestro debit card.

I do not understand a reason.
The Credit Card company takes a haircut of 3-5%. No reason for any recipient to accept that kind of cost when there are similarly convenient but much less expensive means available.

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Well, you and I can agree that we'd like to see banks being more competitive in offering a better service to bank customers - and that customers should perhaps be more willing to change banks to demand it. In practice, I'm not sure customers do act in that way and I'm not sure that account pricing alone is or should be the biggest driver.
You're right, value would have been the better term.

With that said, OP appears to have taken that decision already. How, if not by reacting (be it by walking away or by complaing with the bank), do people expect for anything to change? OP isn't asking, he's complaining, so he already "knows" the bank's at fault. He's not telling the bank so the only way to get an improvement is by walking away.

I do agree though that swiss bank customers usually don't walk away - which allows for them to keep not adapting.

I trust you notice the circular logic here :/

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Ouch. Stepping back for a moment, my point is that consumer usage of instant payment services (by mobile, contactless cards, NFC) has seen massive global growth (from M-Pesa in Kenya through to Starbucks payment app - there are platforms in CH being developed / operational). It's a move away from having to carry cash and offers great convenience for customers / individuals / retailers etc. Expecting easy real-time payment by electronic means is the new rage the world over...

Interestingly, it has not generally been traditional banks taking the lead (although you'd hopefully welcome the competition that these other payment services provide in pushing them to innovate to benefit their customers). The next few years are likely to see bank customers in Switzerland and elsewhere in Europe benefiting from (i) the push from regulators (think about SEPA - the development of which Switzerland has been a part) to standardise processing systems, lower fees, improve transfer times and (ii) the massive investment which interbank clearing houses like SIX are making in upgrading their technology (SIC) as demand for real-time processing increases. Even the traditional orange payment slips here in CH are likely to change within the next 2-3 years with QR codes becoming more common.

So, as a banking customer here in Switzerland, am I satisfied with a 1-2 day delay in inter-account transfers within Switzerland (I'm thinking of PostFinance, but even UBS sets an early afternoon cut-off time)? No. Do I think this is going to change over the next few years with much faster payment times and at lower (or no) per transaction cost? Yes. Are some countries ahead of others in adopting faster payment technology? Yes. Is it a reasonable assumption that bank customers in Switzerland will welcome this? I think so (after all, it is the efficient transfer of their money which is at issue). Is there likely to be a generational gap in how cash v electronic wallets are used? Possibly. Do I have too much interest in this topic? Probably
Whatever the industry, it's hardly ever the dinosaurs who take the lead as they have too much to lose (provided they're aware of the change in the first place - see "only the paranoid survive"). Which may well be part of the reason why things move slowly here, but I digress. Booking speed is not an issue these days, that's usually a matter of hours, if even that. For instance, transferring money from UBS or Raiffeisen to IB, if sent before 4pm (swiss time) is usually available at IB by 6-9pm.

With respect to the post I replied to:
There is indeed at least one clear reason for the delay if the recipient is a swiss bank. Bear with me:
- Booking date = the calendar date when the money is booked into (out of) your account
- Valuta(date) = the date your money starts to collect interest

Additionally:
- For the sender Booking date=Valuta
- For the recipient Booking date +2 days = Valuta

The money is available until/once Valuta has been reached. As a consequence incoming money takes about two days until you "see" it, until it's actually available to you. As a consequence your bank earns interest the two first days after the money has been booked into your account (the difference between Booking date and Valuta). The reason used to be, backoffice operations took time in the pre-IT-age, but of course not anymore. However the convention(practice) persists towards retail customers (not towards big customers, they are aware and demand that practice be scratched). Until customers start pushing, preferably by complaining, nothing will change. And the single best period to do so would be now, when interest rates are as low as they are.

However, banks will find a way to make profit no matter what - in a sense they have to (personnal and infrastrucure cost and all that), and in another sense they want to as somebody has to finance their ever-increasing take, so at times they'll even resort to illegal means (I trust you've heard of the various scandals the last few years).

What I want to say with the latter is, what looks like a free service by UK banks in all likelyhood is not free at all (account keeping used to appear to be free in CH until maybe 10 years ago, too). Instead they make their profit in some other way you're equally unaware of as you're (it seems) unaware of the Booking/Valuta mechanism.
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  #67  
Old 04.02.2015, 02:33
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Re: CH banking is awful

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[...]
The money is available until/once Valuta has been reached. As a consequence incoming money takes about two days until you "see" it, until it's actually available to you. As a consequence your bank earns interest the two first days after the money has been booked into your account[...]
So can we expect faster-than-light clearing as a result of the negative interest rate policy?
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  #68  
Old 04.02.2015, 16:59
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Re: CH banking is awful

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However the convention(practice) persists towards retail customers (not towards big customers, they are aware and demand that practice be scratched). Until customers start pushing, preferably by complaining, nothing will change. And the single best period to do so would be now, when interest rates are as low as they are.
Completely agree, although to get the banks to move on this in the UK, regulatory pressure from the Office of Fair Trading was required in the early 2000s; to encourage SEPA in the Eurozone and beyond, pressure was required (in part) from the EU. If only we could get the anti-capitalist protesters to carry banners at their demonstrations saying "What do want? Instant electronic transfers between banks! When do we want them? Now!"

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However, banks will find a way to make profit no matter what - in a sense they have to (personnal and infrastrucure cost and all that), and in another sense they want to as somebody has to finance their ever-increasing take
Indeed. A normal bank is a business and needs to make a return. With additional costs from regulation and bearing the burden of what seems to be every increasing fines and compensation requirements they'll be looking to grow their income in as many ways as they can.

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What I want to say with the latter is, what looks like a free service by UK banks in all likelyhood is not free at all
There's some truth in this depending upon how you use the account (overdraft charges, lower interest rates on credit balances etc can cause a 'free account' to look expensive). Always look for that catch... But, if you can run your account in credit then why pay for being able to do so? The answer some banks have come up with is to bundle additional services - travel insurance is the classic - although whether those services justify the account fees is another matter. Making a pricing comparison between banks though ain't easy.

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Instead they make their profit in some other way you're equally unaware of as you're (it seems) unaware of the Booking/Valuta mechanism.
All too aware (and frustrated by it). The Booking/Valuta system had/has its equivalent elsewhere - +3 days prior to the Faster Payments system in the UK for electronic transfers. What could be pence/cents/rappen to an individual can amount to substantial interest income for a bank when the aggregate of transfers in clearing are taken into account.

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So can we expect faster-than-light clearing as a result of the negative interest rate policy?
Nice idea. Let's hope the SNB reads this and responds
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  #69  
Old 04.02.2015, 17:26
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Re: CH banking is awful

One aspect where the Swiss retail banks score over UK banks is how they deal with payments when there are insufficient funds in your account. In the UK, it's regarded as an opportunity to screw the customer by sending letters and levying charges. In Switzerland it's simple - nothing happens, which is much more logical.
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Old 05.02.2015, 17:17
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Re: CH banking is awful

OK, thanks for clarifications. I will continue pay for rent via Post office.
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