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  #21  
Old 07.06.2015, 10:50
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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Not unless you are ever asked to provide documentary proof of a clean credit record for the time you where in Switzerland.
okay....thanks for that....i am weighing all possibiliies before intrum replies tomorow ...depending what the situation will be i will have to assess .....i will get back tomorrow ....bon weekend
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  #22  
Old 07.06.2015, 12:19
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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Exactly. Just to make it clear: you don't have to pay any fines or "admin charges". It doesn't matter what you have told Intrum Justitia, or whatever scary nonsense they have told you. They will try it on with anyone. You're only liable for the amount of the Swisscom bill (plus a few CHF in interest, but I wouldn't worry about that).
Pay Swisscom directly, whether they agree or not. Most likely they will not agree! Once you a bad debtor have paid them, they will likely not give it back. Then confirm verbally at least it is credited to your debt with them. At that point they should be more understanding and receptive of your apology.

Ideally you have to somehow pay the Swisscom bill, and get proof of that, like a bank printout, then ask Swisscom to confirm, at least by phone. EG, use the original paying in slip, or payment details, etc. Ideally pay the last/largest amount Swisscom asked for, before they passed it to Interim Justica. Perhaps add another 50chf for interest, write an apology to Swisscomn recorded telling them you have paid extra, forget the IJ fees of 700 or so. Then post Interim Justica the receipt. They will likely pester you for the next 2 years for this or that amount. However them having seen proof of payment to Swisscom might stop them going to the Betriebungsamt. The important thing is to have evidence in case IJ go to the Betriebungsamt. IJ will try and stop you paying Swisscom directly, that way they have their money first, claiming their fees first before passing on anything, and in that case you have not in fact paid Swisscom at all so the full original debt that can be enforced stays open, legally the debt is not reduced.

If IJ did go the Betriebung route, you could always reject it with a copy of your paid receipt and letter to Swisscom. The Betribungsamt then mark the item as disputed. Entries on your register can be paid, unpaid or disputed. Disputed ones need to go to court first before the Betriebungsamt will enforce them. Paid or disputed amounts stay listed for a few years unless the other party agree to remove them, they disappear off the register in time. They don't have any impact abroad. Something serious like a mortgage for 1m, if you can explain to the bank the disputed amounts that is OK. Loan applications for example with GE Moneybank should still go OK if you explain. Not as smooth but that is life. Credit cards might be more tricky. So apply for Coop or Migros free credit cards as your Betriebungs printout will be clean still by the sounds. Perhaps get a copy now, usually people accept it as current within 3 months of issue.

People do try and scam Swiss residents, intimidating them with false Betriebung threats, so false entries are NOT the end of your credit life here.

I had an issue with Cablecom when I left Zurich for Zug. After 2 months of end of life poor service before the block I was in was redeveloped, I sent the equipment back recorded to Cablecom, cancelling immediately. They wanted payment for notice period. I had no new proof of departure to Zug (where they offered no service), I already rented an apartment there, was registered there, they kept asking for a new rental contract which I didn't have. IJ got involved, I disputed the Betriebung and it was there disputed still when I bought a house in Zurich a couple of years later (mortgage not affected). Paying cablecom for the sockets on the wall was no problem, as property owner I was allowed to pay Cablecom to rent those (new account number), but Cablecom would not let me have a new service account for my internet in the house, saying I must clear the old debt I disputed with IJ those years ago first then they would give me a paying in slip. I finally wangled an orange slip to pay Cablecom directly. Cablecom worked really well in the house I bought, excellent service. Apples and oranges. However I switched to Swisscom just recently FTTH installed free for the entire block, and their fibre has 1ms latency and is even better and cheaper as no wall socket to rent. As credit ratings are important to us all, I would appreciate ideas if people know easier ways, mistakes I made etc.

I would say talking to IJ is an expensive luxury at this point.

Last edited by p42; 07.06.2015 at 12:32.
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  #23  
Old 07.06.2015, 12:47
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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Pay Swisscom directly, whether they agree or not. Most likely they will not agree! Once you a bad debtor have paid them, they will likely not give it back. Then confirm verbally at least it is credited to your debt with them. At that point they should be more understanding and receptive of your apology.

Ideally you have to somehow pay the Swisscom bill, and get proof of that, like a bank printout, then ask Swisscom to confirm, at least by phone. EG, use the original paying in slip, or payment details, etc. Ideally pay the last/largest amount Swisscom asked for, before they passed it to Interim Justica. Perhaps add another 50chf for interest, write an apology to Swisscomn recorded telling them you have paid extra, forget the IJ fees of 700 or so. Then post Interim Justica the receipt. They will likely pester you for the next 2 years for this or that amount. However them having seen proof of payment to Swisscom might stop them going to the Betriebungsamt. The important thing is to have evidence in case IJ go to the Betriebungsamt. IJ will try and stop you paying Swisscom directly, that way they have their money first, claiming their fees first before passing on anything, and in that case you have not in fact paid Swisscom at all so the full original debt that can be enforced stays open, legally the debt is not reduced.

If IJ did go the Betriebung route, you could always reject it with a copy of your paid receipt and letter to Swisscom. The Betribungsamt then mark the item as disputed. Entries on your register can be paid, unpaid or disputed. Disputed ones need to go to court first before the Betriebungsamt will enforce them. Paid or disputed amounts stay listed for a few years unless the other party agree to remove them, they disappear off the register in time. They don't have any impact abroad. Something serious like a mortgage for 1m, if you can explain to the bank the disputed amounts that is OK. Loan applications for example with GE Moneybank should still go OK if you explain. Not as smooth but that is life. Credit cards might be more tricky. So apply for Coop or Migros free credit cards as your Betriebungs printout will be clean still by the sounds. Perhaps get a copy now, usually people accept it as current within 3 months of issue.

People do try and scam Swiss residents, intimidating them with false Betriebung threats, so false entries are NOT the end of your credit life here.

I had an issue with Cablecom when I left Zurich for Zug. After 2 months of end of life poor service before the block I was in was redeveloped, I sent the equipment back recorded to Cablecom, cancelling immediately. They wanted payment for notice period. I had no new proof of departure to Zug (where they offered no service), I already rented an apartment there, was registered there, they kept asking for a new rental contract which I didn't have. IJ got involved, I disputed the Betriebung and it was there disputed still when I bought a house in Zurich a couple of years later (mortgage not affected). Paying cablecom for the sockets on the wall was no problem, as property owner I was allowed to pay Cablecom to rent those (new account number), but Cablecom would not let me have a new service account for my internet in the house, saying I must clear the old debt I disputed with IJ those years ago first then they would give me a paying in slip. I finally wangled an orange slip to pay Cablecom directly. Cablecom worked really well in the house I bought, excellent service. Apples and oranges. However I switched to Swisscom just recently FTTH installed free for the entire block, and their fibre has 1ms latency and is even better and cheaper as no wall socket to rent. As credit ratings are important to us all, I would appreciate ideas if people know easier ways, mistakes I made etc.

I would say talking to IJ is an expensive luxury at this point.

This is extremely helpful ...thank you for this....I am just waiting for my first reply from IJ tomorrow....Since I dont live in swiss and don't intend to return to stay etc, a betreibung shouldn't effect me in the US or anywhere else.
That said on a moral ground i feel its my job to pay off the 2 month rental + interest to swisscom and i feel i will mail them and simple transfer the money to their account ...hope the story will end there....i don't know if IJ can pursue me abroad for a debt of 1000 chf + whatever their fee would be.... I dont want to talk to them as well because they would threaten me with all fake make believe legal shit ....and that would unneccesarily spoil my day .....in fact IJ hasn't got my address or my contact details abroad...i am not sure if i dont provide them details , they could ever send me debt collection notices....
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  #24  
Old 07.06.2015, 15:52
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

OP, your contract is with swisscom, not with Intrum. Without your consent Swisscom has no right to get any third party involved. Thus ignore Intrum, deal with and talk to Swisscom only. It doesn't matter if they like it or not, that's just how it is.

- Pay what you owe to Swisscom. Your contract is/was with them, that's who you pay, nobody else. Full stop. Perhaps you can haggle, have them remove the fine from the bill (or ignore it altogether, as has been suggested)
- do not talk to Intrum. And definitely don't pay them anything, not even a single cent/Rappen. Swisscom engaged them thus they're paid by Swisscom, not by you (who orders, pays)
- There will probably be a "Betreibung" showing in your "Betreibungs-Register-Auszug" , but it will automatically disappear after no more than five years. This is a swiss-only civil matter, there will be no criminal charges

I don't know if it may affect you getting a swiss visa, but I doubt it. Even if it does, that effect should disapper no later than after five years - perhaps ask a swiss consulate, just to be sure. At any rate it won't affect you getting any non-swiss visa.

Do not talk to Intrum, do not pay them.

Last edited by Urs Max; 07.06.2015 at 16:04.
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  #25  
Old 07.06.2015, 20:06
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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OP, your contract is with swisscom, not with Intrum. Without your consent Swisscom has no right to get any third party involved. Thus ignore Intrum, deal with and talk to Swisscom only. It doesn't matter if they like it or not, that's just how it is.

- Pay what you owe to Swisscom. Your contract is/was with them, that's who you pay, nobody else. Full stop. Perhaps you can haggle, have them remove the fine from the bill (or ignore it altogether, as has been suggested)
- do not talk to Intrum. And definitely don't pay them anything, not even a single cent/Rappen. Swisscom engaged them thus they're paid by Swisscom, not by you (who orders, pays)
- There will probably be a "Betreibung" showing in your "Betreibungs-Register-Auszug" , but it will automatically disappear after no more than five years. This is a swiss-only civil matter, there will be no criminal charges

I don't know if it may affect you getting a swiss visa, but I doubt it. Even if it does, that effect should disapper no later than after five years - perhaps ask a swiss consulate, just to be sure. At any rate it won't affect you getting any non-swiss visa.

Do not talk to Intrum, do not pay them.
Thanks Urs....tht was an amazing piece of info and very motivational too....I will pay swisscom and get rid of it instantly in some way....I have the account details to which I transferred the money while I was paying the rental,I will pay the money to that account by informing them thus not getting involved with IJ.

If the betriebung doesn't affect any non-swiss visa ...then allz good .
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Old 07.06.2015, 20:37
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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OP, your contract is with swisscom, not with Intrum. Without your consent Swisscom has no right to get any third party involved. Thus ignore Intrum, deal with and talk to Swisscom only. It doesn't matter if they like it or not, that's just how it is.
Sorry, that's incorrect. It absolutely possible to assign a claim (see art. 164 of the Code of Obligations https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi.../index.html#a2. If OP was informed about the assignment and pays Swisscom all the same he won't be realeased from his debt (art. 167 CO ex contrario). He therefore should pay the amount due (no fines, administratives fees) to intrum and keep the confirmation of payment for evidentiary purposes. And then stop worrying about it.
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Old 07.06.2015, 20:47
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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Sorry, that's incorrect. It absolutely possible to assign a claim (see art. 164 of the Code of Obligations https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi.../index.html#a2. If OP was informed about the assignment and pays Swisscom all the same he won't be realeased from his debt (art. 167 CO ex contrario). He therefore should pay the amount due (no fines, administratives fees) to intrum and keep the confirmation of payment for evidentiary purposes. And then stop worrying about it.
Once Intrum send me the bill....I will assess how much extra they are charging and try and negogiate ...if they dont bulge, then I have to talk to swisscom....tomorrow's going to be interesting ...
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  #28  
Old 07.06.2015, 21:44
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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Once Intrum send me the bill....I will assess how much extra they are charging and try and negogiate ...if they dont bulge, then I have to talk to swisscom....tomorrow's going to be interesting ...
I don't know why you're even considering negotiating with the Intrum people. Just pay off your debt to Swisscom in full and ignore any further correspondence from Intrum.
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  #29  
Old 07.06.2015, 21:56
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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- There will probably be a "Betreibung" showing in your "Betreibungs-Register-Auszug" , but it will automatically disappear after no more than five years.
Ummm, no.

My wife's ex has a Betreibung against him (from her) still on record from 1999.

This we know for fact, as he wants her to remove it, she refuses (for VERY good reasons that I won't get into), and we have an official copy sent to her several months ago at her request from the office of poursuites (Ufficio di esecuzioni e fallimenti).

Tom
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  #30  
Old 07.06.2015, 22:42
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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Ummm, no.

My wife's ex has a Betreibung against him (from her) still on record from 1999.

This we know for fact, as he wants her to remove it, she refuses (for VERY good reasons that I won't get into), and we have an official copy sent to her several months ago at her request from the office of poursuites (Ufficio di esecuzioni e fallimenti).

Tom
This old one would be an unpaid betriebung. Not a disputed or paid one. My advice was to pay, and dispute any that arrive attaching receipt. This means giving the Betriebungs Amt your address, and talking to them, saying that you are waiting for a Betriebung that you will want to contest, can they be sure to forward it, etc.
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Old 07.06.2015, 22:53
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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Once Intrum send me the bill....I will assess how much extra they are charging and try and negogiate ...if they dont bulge, then I have to talk to swisscom....tomorrow's going to be interesting ...
Don't negotiate with Intrum. Simply state that their fines/charges have no basis in law and you will not pay them. There is information from the Swiss Consumer Bureau here; https://www.konsumentenschutz.ch/med...trum-justitia/

And a sample letter written by them to IJ: https://www.konsumentenschutz.ch/sks..._sks_06_13.doc
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Old 08.06.2015, 11:59
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

I got a reply from Intrum today and they seem to have added an extra fee of 500 chf to my initially bill to swisscom of 950 chf(incl.interest)

These r the fee they have added:

Frais de retard selon art. 106 CO 325.00
Frais de recherches d'adresse 17.50
Demande de bureau de poste 10.80
Frais de conseil juridique 150.00

Do i need to pay all this extra stuff as well ? They have allowed me a month's time to pay the bill . No "betreibung" yet
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Old 08.06.2015, 12:31
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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I got a reply from Intrum today and they seem to have added an extra fee of 500 chf to my initially bill to swisscom of 950 chf(incl.interest)

These r the fee they have added:

Frais de retard selon art. 106 CO 325.00
Frais de recherches d'adresse 17.50
Demande de bureau de poste 10.80
Frais de conseil juridique 150.00

Do i need to pay all this extra stuff as well ? They have allowed me a month's time to pay the bill . No "betreibung" yet
No! Do not pay them anything, reply telling them that you have paid Swisscom and that you do not owe any money to IJ.
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  #34  
Old 08.06.2015, 12:38
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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I got a reply from Intrum today and they seem to have added an extra fee of 500 chf to my initially bill to swisscom of 950 chf(incl.interest)

These r the fee they have added:

Frais de retard selon art. 106 CO 325.00
Frais de recherches d'adresse 17.50
Demande de bureau de poste 10.80
Frais de conseil juridique 150.00

Do i need to pay all this extra stuff as well ? They have allowed me a month's time to pay the bill . No "betreibung" yet
It's actually quite irritating when the answer to this is in the post above yours!

However, I notice it says costs for searching for your address as the second charge. Does this mean they have sent a letter to your address in SF? If not and they don't know where you live then pay Swisscom and ignore IJ.
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Old 08.06.2015, 12:47
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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It's actually quite irritating when the answer to this is in the post above yours!

However, I notice it says costs for searching for your address as the second charge. Does this mean they have sent a letter to your address in SF? If not and they don't know where you live then pay Swisscom and ignore IJ.
No , they haven't sent me any letters anywhere.....it was me who contacted swisscom to clear the due if any after 6 months and they directed me to IJ ...I contacted them via e mail and got a reply today with theses charges as an attachment.....

I will try to deal with swisscom directly and pay them and once the money is transferred , mail IJ the receipt...

end of strory
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  #36  
Old 08.06.2015, 13:11
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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I will try to deal with swisscom directly and pay them and once the money is transferred , mail IJ the receipt...
Correct. And don't pay any of those additional fees you mentioned.

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end of strory
Well, even when you have paid off Swisscom and sent the proof to Intrum Justitia, IJ will still continue to send you demands for their charges every couple months for a while. Just ignore them.
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Old 02.07.2015, 19:42
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

I called up swisscom and offered them to pay the remaing contract fee + interests but they said the account is with Intrum Justitia and to deal with them.

Meanwhile, IJ have asked me to clear the dues till the 25 th of July.

I am at crossroads now,

1. Since, I am not in Swiss and the EU , could I just ignore this totally ?

2. Also, I don't intend to come back to swiss for at least 6 yrs, so even if there is a Betreibung against me , could it ever impact me in anywhich way in the US or interfere with my travels to other countries (both EU and non - EU)
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Old 02.07.2015, 19:45
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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I called up swisscom and offered them to pay the remaing contract fee + interests but they said the account is with Intrum Justitia and to deal with them.

Meanwhile, IJ have asked me to clear the dues till the 25 th of July.

I am at crossroads now,

1. Since, I am not in Swiss and the EU , could I just ignore this totally ?

2. Also, I don't intend to come back to swiss for at least 6 yrs, so even if there is a Betreibung against me , could it ever impact me in anywhich way in the US or interfere with my travels to other countries (both EU and non - EU)
Do you have any paper bill or anything from Swisscom with their account details on it?
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Old 02.07.2015, 19:46
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

No, I used to do it online through my account in the pay bill via credit card option.
Now, I can't access my account
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Old 02.07.2015, 19:51
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Re: INTRUM JUSTITIA: how badly can they screw me up

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No, I used to do it online through my account in the pay bill via credit card option.
Now, I can't access my account
Can you ask them for a paper copy of an old bill? Or will your past credit account statement have the account details on it? You just need to get their account details and pay them.
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