Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #141  
Old 08.04.2016, 11:52
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 224
Groaned at 71 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 137 Times in 75 Posts
profetas is considered unworthyprofetas is considered unworthyprofetas is considered unworthyprofetas is considered unworthy
Re: Investment fund

Well that is a way more logical way to justify it.
I may propose his fund for http://www.gurufocus.com/ they track the "GURU" in the business and they are always open for additions.

Quote:
View Post
I have been following Terry Smith for over 25 years, he is unusual as he is prepared to offend people, even if he works for them:-

When working for BZW as a Banking Analyst he put out a SELL note on the parent company of his employer Barclays Bank. In-house analysts are not supposed to publish such information

When he worked for UBS Phlilips & Drew he wrote a book that questioned a number of companies accounting methods. He was told he would be sacked if he published his book. He did & was unemployable in London for 18 months until companies in his book started to loose money & 1 when bankrupt.......

Terry argues that taking higher risks does not lead to higher rewards, which is the main point of his fund.

Enjoy your day at work
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank profetas for this useful post:
  #142  
Old 09.04.2016, 00:13
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,462
Groaned at 50 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 2,232 Times in 1,226 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Investment fund

I have to add that I asked one of the guys who give general investment-ideas on some Tagesanzeiger.ch sub-site about Mr. Smith.
He said he doesn't know about the fund specifically but he also knew him from reading research-reports during his time at a bank. He said he considers him as one of the five or so smartest people in his field.
Haven't invested there yet. Should probably do, like I should have invested in Apple after I saw the iPhone presentation in 2007...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank rainer_d for this useful post:
This user groans at rainer_d for this post:
  #143  
Old 11.04.2016, 02:38
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 626
Groaned at 98 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 399 Times in 218 Posts
Capo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthy
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
I have made a lot of money in the fund, it was roughly 1 Billion GBP when I first invested, it's now 5.5 Billion GBP fund. I am very pleased for anyone who took my advise to invest early on. Laugh as much as you want, but then you need a monthly pay check to live off, I don't. I have now made more money from Fundsmith than any other investment in my life.

Perhaps I am having the last laugh, I have been skiing for 4 months & will be going back to Malta at the weekend, expected temperature next week is 30 degrees.

On the down side I did do 1.5 days work this week, however my 'work' was at the Porsche development centre in Stuttgart, It was a load of fun
If you are going to argue against, at least come up with something a bit more intelligent.

Fundsmith is just another fund that may or may not be in a lucky streak. Since less than 3% of all actively managed funds beat the markets in the long run, you will only be able to talk about the "track record" of Fundsmith after a minimum of 20 years since it's inception.

Last edited by Capo; 11.04.2016 at 03:15.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 11.04.2016, 03:15
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 626
Groaned at 98 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 399 Times in 218 Posts
Capo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthy
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
I have to add that I asked one of the guys who give general investment-ideas on some Tagesanzeiger.ch sub-site about Mr. Smith.
He said he doesn't know about the fund specifically but he also knew him from reading research-reports during his time at a bank. He said he considers him as one of the five or so smartest people in his field.
Haven't invested there yet. Should probably do, like I should have invested in Apple after I saw the iPhone presentation in 2007...
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 11.04.2016, 12:17
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,759
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,080 Times in 6,282 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
If you are going to argue against, at least come up with something a bit more intelligent.

Fundsmith is just another fund that may or may not be in a lucky streak. Since less than 3% of all actively managed funds beat the markets in the long run, you will only be able to talk about the "track record" of Fundsmith after a minimum of 20 years since it's inception.
Very few funds retain the same fund manager for 20 years so it's irrelevant, what is interesting is that the management company cannot be sold. I don't think there is any other open ended fund where the managers have done that. Why would they as selling out would net them a fortune, this alone makes the fund more interesting to me, Terry Smith is unique individual who can't leave the fund.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 11.04.2016, 14:33
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 717
Groaned at 11 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 326 Times in 228 Posts
Tinkiwinki has earned some respectTinkiwinki has earned some respect
Re: Investment fund

Still an interesting fund to watch. I checked the website and wondered what the difference would be between the feeder fund in Lux and the actual fund in UK other than the EUR and GBP difference.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 11.04.2016, 21:21
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,759
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,080 Times in 6,282 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
Still an interesting fund to watch. I checked the website and wondered what the difference would be between the feeder fund in Lux and the actual fund in UK other than the EUR and GBP difference.
I have answered more than once, the feeder invests in the UK fund, however it's registered in the tax haven of Luxembourg so not a UK fund, this is important to a few people, who don't wish to hold UK assets.

The feeder fund has 0.2% additional charges for the separate level of management.
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 11.04.2016, 22:27
Troublawesome's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Zug
Posts: 721
Groaned at 124 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 583 Times in 271 Posts
Troublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthyTroublawesome is considered unworthy
Re: Investment fund

https://www.fundsmith.co.uk/tv

Annual presentation, a great watch.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Troublawesome for this useful post:
  #149  
Old 11.04.2016, 22:41
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SZ
Posts: 85
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 36 Times in 20 Posts
etsius has made some interesting contributions
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
I'd be more concerned about just preserving my wealth, rather than trying to make it grow. I don't trust funds or financial institutions in the current climate. After marrying, my wife asked me to look at her portfolio. Among other things, she had Greek bonds, AIG, Leyman and Raiffeisen International. I said, "Sell all, buy physical gold" To my surprise, she did, and we've still got a roof over our heads. I've got to decide soon whether to take a lump sum from my Zweitesäule or monthly payments (I'm nearing 65). I just don't believe the insurer will be solvent in ten years. They are required to pay 6.8% interest on the principal. Since they can't earn that by banking (negative interest), they're doing derivatives and real estate. Deutsche Bank is exposed to 75 trillion in derivatives. Would you leave your money there? Thanks, but I just don't trust anyone now with my funds.


Isn't the Zweitesäule ring-fenced?
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 11.04.2016, 23:48
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,478
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,334 Times in 5,679 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
https://www.fundsmith.co.uk/tv

Annual presentation, a great watch.
Thanks for this. Good to hear that he has the same view as me on Brexit, 1873 as the correct parallel to today's crisis, and the insanity of the current QE/loose money policy. Would invest more with him.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
This user groans at Phil_MCR for this post:
  #151  
Old 12.04.2016, 11:09
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 717
Groaned at 11 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 326 Times in 228 Posts
Tinkiwinki has earned some respectTinkiwinki has earned some respect
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
I have answered more than once, the feeder invests in the UK fund, however it's registered in the tax haven of Luxembourg so not a UK fund, this is important to a few people, who don't wish to hold UK assets.

The feeder fund has 0.2% additional charges for the separate level of management.
In the Bernard Madoff case I believe the feeder funds never saw any of there holdings back as the ones investing in the real fund did.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tinkiwinki for this useful post:
  #152  
Old 12.04.2016, 14:27
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,759
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,080 Times in 6,282 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
In the Bernard Madoff case I believe the feeder funds never saw any of there holdings back as the ones investing in the real fund did.
Thats correct, however I am not worried in any way.
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 12.04.2016, 17:04
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 626
Groaned at 98 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 399 Times in 218 Posts
Capo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthy
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
Very few funds retain the same fund manager for 20 years so it's irrelevant, what is interesting is that the management company cannot be sold. I don't think there is any other open ended fund where the managers have done that. Why would they as selling out would net them a fortune, this alone makes the fund more interesting to me, Terry Smith is unique individual who can't leave the fund.
The point is that Nobel laureate, Prof. Eugene Fama, and Prof. Kenneth French have proven that only after a considerable period of time a fund can claim to beat the market. For short periods, there is no scientific proven theory or demonstration that a fund is not "winning" based on pure luck. That being said, in the long run, you will be paying management fees for nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 12.04.2016, 17:07
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 626
Groaned at 98 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 399 Times in 218 Posts
Capo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthy
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
Very few funds retain the same fund manager for 20 years so it's irrelevant, what is interesting is that the management company cannot be sold. I don't think there is any other open ended fund where the managers have done that. Why would they as selling out would net them a fortune, this alone makes the fund more interesting to me, Terry Smith is unique individual who can't leave the fund.
Show me his track record as a hedge fund manager. From what I have seen on the net, he was either an analyst or a bureaucrat in a broker-dealer. I want to see evidences that he has skills as a stock picker & fund manager.
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 12.04.2016, 17:35
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 244
Groaned at 64 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 121 Times in 68 Posts
MarkH is considered unworthyMarkH is considered unworthyMarkH is considered unworthyMarkH is considered unworthy
Re: Investment fund

http://www.finanzen.ch/Fonds/UBS-CH-...-Switzerland-P


I think this is one to watch for the CHF investors.
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 12.04.2016, 18:15
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 626
Groaned at 98 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 399 Times in 218 Posts
Capo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthy
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
http://www.finanzen.ch/Fonds/UBS-CH-...-Switzerland-P


I think this is one to watch for the CHF investors.
Why?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Capo for this useful post:
  #157  
Old 12.04.2016, 22:00
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 717
Groaned at 11 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 326 Times in 228 Posts
Tinkiwinki has earned some respectTinkiwinki has earned some respect
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
The point is that Nobel laureate, Prof. Eugene Fama, and Prof. Kenneth French have proven that only after a considerable period of time a fund can claim to beat the market. For short periods, there is no scientific proven theory or demonstration that a fund is not "winning" based on pure luck. That being said, in the long run, you will be paying management fees for nothing.
Remember Long Term Capital Management? It collapsed in 1998 and in the Board of Directors were Scholes and Merton. Both Nobel price winners.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Tinkiwinki for this useful post:
  #158  
Old 13.04.2016, 05:20
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 626
Groaned at 98 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 399 Times in 218 Posts
Capo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthyCapo is considered unworthy
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
Remember Long Term Capital Management? It collapsed in 1998 and in the Board of Directors were Scholes and Merton. Both Nobel price winners.
So, what's your point?
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 13.04.2016, 10:31
xynth's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 760
Groaned at 37 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,686 Times in 505 Posts
xynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post
The point is that Nobel laureate, Prof. Eugene Fama, and Prof. Kenneth French have proven that only after a considerable period of time a fund can claim to beat the market. For short periods, there is no scientific proven theory or demonstration that a fund is not "winning" based on pure luck. That being said, in the long run, you will be paying management fees for nothing.
There is no "scientific proven theory" that a fund is winning on anything more than luck for any period of time. There is no boundary to the amount of luck one might have, it's just the odds that change. A fund that beat the market for 50 years is less likely to have done so with luck than a fund that has beat the market for 5 years, but neither can be proven one way or another. At best you can say that with a confidence of X% a particular fund has outperformed the market due to skill.

Furthermore, scientific theories cannot be "proven", they are supported by evidence or disproved as incorrect. Their key property is that they are falsifiable and make useful predictions about the world. Mathematical theorems can be proven, but there are no theorems proving a particular fund's performance as pure chance or skill. What you have are probabilistic measures that tell you how much skill and leverage the fund manager had in the _past_, and how likely are these measures to be correct.

Quote:
View Post
So, what's your point?
His point is that your post is a logical fallacy known as appeal to authority.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank xynth for this useful post:
This user groans at xynth for this post:
  #160  
Old 13.04.2016, 11:02
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 717
Groaned at 11 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 326 Times in 228 Posts
Tinkiwinki has earned some respectTinkiwinki has earned some respect
Re: Investment fund

Quote:
View Post

His point is that your post is a logical fallacy known as appeal to authority.
Thank you

On a similar note to what a proven track record is.

The LTCM fund was an early adopter of quantitative models to exploit deviations from value in the relationships between liquid securities across nations and asset classes. The key is that margins are very small and the fund needed a huge leverage. Arbitrage is still ongoing and lucrative.

What is to learn here is that quantitative models tend to profit big from stable situations by optimising the models. They are very bad in coping with unexpected elements (as in the case of LTCM the Russian crisis). No need for a real black swan here.

The other thing to learn is that you need markets that are seriously liquid. In times of crisis liquidity dries up.

The take away is that funds with a good track record or even with an outstanding track record may be over optimised on thesis of quantitative models. The most difficult thing is to time your exit.

Fundsmith btw is not geared like LTMC
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tinkiwinki for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advice for fund investment in CH Sky Blue Finance/banking/taxation 12 22.08.2016 19:49
pension fund convertion to disability fund, is it legitimate? tailgate Family matters/health 2 29.03.2015 14:40
3a Funds Investment + tax benefits VS Free Investment defcon3 Finance/banking/taxation 2 01.01.2015 00:16
unemployment fund Mahladu Employment 11 23.09.2011 11:49
Investment Fund Savings Plan/Income Plan tesla Finance/banking/taxation 17 02.11.2010 11:04


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0