Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 30.06.2015, 15:38
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9
Groaned at 5 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
sally.anne has earned some respectsally.anne has earned some respect
compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investments?

There have been a few discussions on the forums about people in Switzerland losing money due to 'capital protected' Lehman Brothers investments or margin wipeout during the dramatic appreciated of CHF in January 2015.

Some similar cases in the US are being settled through FINRA arbitration (which is relatively inexpensive compared to court) and FINRA has a public database you can search to find out which customers won compensation and how much. For example, a recent case against Interactive Brokers paid $1,200,000 to somebody who lost retirement savings (IRA).

How does the process compare here in Switzerland?

Is there any list of the more significant grounds for complaints?

If somebody uses a Swiss bank or broker to trade a US security, is that sufficient for them to use FINRA arbitration?

So far, the only resource I've discovered is the Banking Ombudsman and apparently he doesn't have any binding powers and anything that can't be settled through informal mediation has to go to court.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 30.06.2015, 17:04
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,721
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,031 Times in 6,256 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Was this an advised or execution only trade ?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 30.06.2015, 17:27
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9
Groaned at 5 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
sally.anne has earned some respectsally.anne has earned some respect
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
Was this an advised or execution only trade ?
In this case, yes, there is a personal adviser at the bank and all the trades are made through the adviser.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 30.06.2015, 17:34
roegner's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,034
Groaned at 87 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 3,060 Times in 1,567 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Did you sign an agreement in some way for this? Normally the bank should "measure your risk appetite" and document this.
If you were deemed to have a high risk appetite and it is documented, things might be more difficult to claim. But do check with the Ombudsman
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 30.06.2015, 19:44
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,721
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,031 Times in 6,256 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
In this case, yes, there is a personal adviser at the bank and all the trades are made through the adviser.
What was the reason for these speculative trades, hardly normal punter stuff in CH.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 30.06.2015, 19:57
roegner's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,034
Groaned at 87 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 3,060 Times in 1,567 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
What was the reason for these speculative trades, hardly normal punter stuff in CH.
Right, hence the question on high risk profile. This is not something that is offered to each and every customer (and I expect the rules of what can be offered to whom have only tightened in the last years after several banks lost court cases over speculative investments)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 30.06.2015, 20:00
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,355
Groaned at 368 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 22,366 Times in 10,062 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
What was the reason for these speculative trades, hardly normal punter stuff in CH.
Perso I have to say those who agree to high risk trading (we do not as we can't afford to lose) should not be compensated. Nobody compensates those who lose in gambling...

We've discussed investment strategies with our bank manager several times- and he was VERY clear about which options were likely to be very profitable- but could also lose big time. He himself compared it to 'intelligent gambling' - but gambling all the same. So we picked 'grans and grannies' low profit options- as we just cannot afford to gamble, and OH is defo not a gambler (as he knows what gambling does to a family )

Last edited by Odile; 30.06.2015 at 21:04.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 30.06.2015, 20:58
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9
Groaned at 5 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
sally.anne has earned some respectsally.anne has earned some respect
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
Perso I have to say those who agree to high risk trading (we do not as we can't afford to lose) should not be compensated. Nobody compensates those who lose in gambling...
Banks don't offer gambling, they promote investment, isn't that why it is regulated differently?
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users groan at sally.anne for this post:
  #9  
Old 30.06.2015, 21:02
roegner's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,034
Groaned at 87 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 3,060 Times in 1,567 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Well, futures is definitely gambling, in my opinion. Also called speculation.
Either you bet on a red ball at roulette in the casino or your pork futures (or something else), either way it is gambling to me.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 30.06.2015, 22:38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: St Elsewhere
Posts: 332
Groaned at 16 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 314 Times in 150 Posts
Brass427 has earned the respect of manyBrass427 has earned the respect of manyBrass427 has earned the respect of many
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Brass427 for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 01.07.2015, 00:16
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,086
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,065 Times in 1,054 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
View Post
In this case, yes, there is a personal adviser at the bank and all the trades are made through the adviser.
To clarify, did the adviser contact you and tell you to buy X or did you call the adviser and tell him to buy X???

Quote:
View Post
Banks don't offer gambling, they promote investment, isn't that why it is regulated differently?
They do neither, they sell products and the underlying assumption is that you are an adult and therefore responsible for you actions. If you were trading in futures, then it is very unlikely that the bank was advising you do to so, so it is going to be an up hill struggle to prove otherwise.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 01.07.2015 at 16:25. Reason: merging consecutive replies
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 01.07.2015, 21:55
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9
Groaned at 5 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
sally.anne has earned some respectsally.anne has earned some respect
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
They do neither, they sell products and the underlying assumption is that you are an adult and therefore responsible for you actions. If you were trading in futures, then it is very unlikely that the bank was advising you do to so, so it is going to be an up hill struggle to prove otherwise.
That is all well and good but in recent years there have been a number of scandals like LIBOR rigging and so customers are not always responsible for their losses if the game was rigged by a big and powerful bank.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01.07.2015, 22:01
roegner's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,034
Groaned at 87 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 3,060 Times in 1,567 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

LIBOR rigging or buying futures etc is a completely different ball game.

When I buy USD (at work) in the future (FX forwards in this case), it is to cover a need for USD that I have in the future and secure the rate now. If you buy and just hope that the counter value will depreciate and you will make a gain, then it´s speculation and your own risk.

If you cannot show anything more than this kind of argument of suspected rigging to a bank or Ombudsman, I am afraid your chances are zero.

Normally any bank will give you a written confirmation on your risk profile including the type of investments they think you can handle. If your risk profile would show only Tagesgeld or Investmentfunds and the bank still told you to buy futures etc, then you could have a case.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 01.07.2015, 22:03
Corbets's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zug, CH
Posts: 2,830
Groaned at 155 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 5,371 Times in 1,833 Posts
Corbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
That is all well and good but in recent years there have been a number of scandals like LIBOR rigging and so customers are not always responsible for their losses if the game was rigged by a big and powerful bank.
Zurichlake, is that you?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Corbets for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 02.07.2015, 15:01
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,721
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,031 Times in 6,256 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
Perso I have to say those who agree to high risk trading (we do not as we can't afford to lose) should not be compensated. Nobody compensates those who lose in gambling...
( )
Funny thing is when there was the flash crash on Wall Street a few years ago many of the trades in 260 companies got canceled which I think is unfair. If a some banks computers buys shares from me at an absurdly high price which they did, who should I not get the $40,000,000 shown on the contract note?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 02.07.2015, 21:45
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9
Groaned at 5 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
sally.anne has earned some respectsally.anne has earned some respect
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
Funny thing is when there was the flash crash on Wall Street a few years ago many of the trades in 260 companies got canceled which I think is unfair. If a some banks computers buys shares from me at an absurdly high price which they did, who should I not get the $40,000,000 shown on the contract note?
Funny indeed

It sounds a bit like big German and French banks lending EUR 300 billion to the Greeks and then instead of the banks having to take a loss, it is the IMF and the EU (and ultimately all taxpayers) who took the loans on their shoulders and are now hanging on waiting to see if they get anything back. Social security for banks.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at sally.anne for this post:
  #17  
Old 02.07.2015, 21:49
Today only's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,709
Groaned at 482 Times in 292 Posts
Thanked 3,929 Times in 1,961 Posts
Today only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
Banks don't offer gambling, they promote investment, isn't that why it is regulated differently?
You naive or stupid ?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Today only for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 02.07.2015, 23:46
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,086
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,065 Times in 1,054 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
That is all well and good but in recent years there have been a number of scandals like LIBOR rigging and so customers are not always responsible for their losses if the game was rigged by a big and powerful bank.
Totally different issue. Now back to the unanswered question: did the adviser recommend the trade or did you tell him to execute the trade.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 03.07.2015, 09:37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zürich
Posts: 349
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 258 Times in 155 Posts
ThomasSSS has earned the respect of manyThomasSSS has earned the respect of manyThomasSSS has earned the respect of many
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
Banks don't offer gambling, they promote investment, isn't that why it is regulated differently?
Both gambling and investing involve risking some money to attempt to make more money. Also, both involve dealing with a counterparty which doesn't have your interests at heart. That is why both are regulated.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03.07.2015, 19:46
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9
Groaned at 5 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
sally.anne has earned some respectsally.anne has earned some respect
Re: compensation for speculative trading losses on futures, CFDs and other investment

Quote:
View Post
Totally different issue. Now back to the unanswered question: did the adviser recommend the trade or did you tell him to execute the trade.
The question relates to both types of trades
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Investments for 2013 and beyond WeB Finance/banking/taxation 23 13.01.2013 14:24
Futures Trading Arcade sharescams Business & entrepreneur 4 05.03.2010 19:00


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0