Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 13.10.2015, 20:25
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Was Belgium now Neuchâtel
Posts: 8,227
Groaned at 60 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 10,245 Times in 4,928 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Quote:
View Post
Thank you for your response. On the subject of the mortgages themselves. Can they be cancelled (gekündigt) by the bank for the simple fact that the individual is no longer employed and no longer has the same income as when the mortgage was set up? Is that a valid reason for the bank to pull out/repossess or do you actually have to fall behind with payments for that to happen?
I don't think they can cancel the mortgage before it reaches term as long as the payments are being made but they can refuse to give a new one when it reaches term and a new rate is being negotiated.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 13.10.2015, 20:35
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,781
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,094 Times in 6,293 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Quote:
View Post
I don't think they can cancel the mortgage before it reaches term as long as the payments are being made but they can refuse to give a new one when it reaches term and a new rate is being negotiated.
During a fixed term you are correct, when the term ends they can review the situation. Remember Swiss mortgages don't have an end date as there is no intention to pay them off-. The Bank can also ask for an increased deposit if they believe the value has fallen.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 13.10.2015, 20:37
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aargau
Posts: 846
Groaned at 322 Times in 159 Posts
Thanked 324 Times in 229 Posts
plumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthy
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

I personally set up a mortgage with literally 25 days to spare before my employment contract was (albeit illegally) terminated a few years ago and have had no issue since for the payments are automatic (this is compulsory as far as I am aware, with my provider). I guess an altered employment status doesn't have any bearing.

It was just that I had heard rumours that if they found out I was now on incapacity benefit with a lower income than when I was employed, they could cancel the agreement.
It was this that set alarm bells ringing for the situation my colleague is in as she has debts (personal loan to keep up on, as well as taxes outstanding). I told her it was imperative that there is always enough money in the account to cover the mortgage when it comes around once a quarter and in theory she should be alright.

Quote:
View Post
During a fixed term you are correct, when the term ends they can review the situation.
Mine is up for review in 2021, so until then I guess I am also alright.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank plumtree for this useful post:
  #44  
Old 13.10.2015, 21:00
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,467
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,230 Times in 824 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

@plumtree

sorry, I can't get the QUOTE function to work...
Plumtree wrote:
"I don't know if Mary is doing anything wrong/illegal herself in receiving EL, since officially and/or in writing she is not aware that she is entitled to a 2nd pillar pension."

Okay, Mary is not 100% aware of her exact position, that's true. But she does at least know that you think she may be entitled to a pension plan pension (2nd pillar). And anyway, ignorance of the law is not considered a valid argument or justification for going against it. The rules of the EL will state clearly that it is a requirement to declare every possible thing. Somewhere on the application she will have signed that this is the truth about all her assets and all her sources of income INCLUDING those which she chooses to forego.

Here, for example, in Question 15: https://www.sva-ag.ch/fileadmin/cust...0_09_11_vr.pdf

Therefore, sadly, yes, I think Mary is doing something wrong (in the sense of against the rules/laws about the EL) because on the application you and Mary, as you say, wrote 'not in receipt of a 2nd Pillar pension'. Now, although that was a truth in that she is not having that that pension fund pension (2nd Pillar) paid into her account [yet], it is not the full truthful answer to the key requirement when applying for the EL, namely to declare EVERY possible source of income. That will also include the “decision from another country she had worked is pending”, that you mention. Not declaring all these possibilities to the EL is, as I understand it, flatly against the rules.

If Mary is ill, she probably can’t think straight about all these matters at the moment. That’s understandable, and it is a terrible thing that, just when one is down on the ground, all these procedures bear down upon one as well! Surely the last thing Mary would need – on top of everything else that’s troubling her – would be to be accused of diddling the system. That is a very serious charge. And I think she (or better her legal representative) could easily take steps to PREVENT this new very serious Trouble by writing, as I suggested, saying honestly that she does not yet know all the facts of her finances, and is too ill to deal with it now, but will report back to the EL once she knows more. That way, the EL will most likely continue – as they did in your case – to pay the EL benefits for some period (maybe they will, after some time, set a date) on the understanding that this is done out of pragmatism, while all the facts are collected.

Mary is, of course, always completely free to CHOOSE not to collect any pension to which she is entitled. What cannot, however, be alright – not on any account! – within the Swiss social security system as it is now conceptualised, is that the state (the Office paying out the EL) should have to support her just because she makes that choice and/or because she does not inform them correctly that she could, possibly, obtain that pension plan pension (2nd pillar) in Switzerland, plus another possible pension from abroad.

I concur with the person at the free legal advice centre that Mary needs a specialist legal service. Yes. However, I’d like to encourage you and her, that it need not be a long, drawn-out procedure, nor need it cost a fortune, especially if Mary gets that help (free or subsidised) from one of the advice centres to which I linked. It is perfectly possible for her to tell them her story just once, to provide them all the documentation she has (copies, she should always keep the originals) and thereafter to let the legal advice centre deal with it without her having to be more involved. She should ask them to find everything out, so that they can then explain very clearly, with a list of income and assets, what her options are, given everything to which she is entitled, and not entitled, and what it would mean if she claimed the pension plan pension (2nd pillar) or if she elected to forgo so doing. Such services typically do not charge a fortune, and they can gather the information much more quickly than lay-persons, because they command the vocabulary. Please, try to encourage her to go to one of those services, or at the very least the social worker in her clinic, with her bundle of documents.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #45  
Old 13.10.2015, 21:13
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aargau
Posts: 846
Groaned at 322 Times in 159 Posts
Thanked 324 Times in 229 Posts
plumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthy
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Thank you very much for your help and input. The form you linked is the exact same form we both utilized to apply for EL.
I will try to gently introduce the topic to her again soon.
I have meanwhile saved the links you previously pasted for reference. Thank you again.

Note: The pension decision from the other country (EU/EFTA) can come through much later. Mine came through around 2 1/2 years after the Swiss decision to grant IV came through (!!!) and incredibly it was backdated, so I found myself with a huge payment in my account from another country, without any explanation on the bank to transfer what this money was for or who the sender (just a series of letters and numbers) was, until the letter came a few weeks later in the post(receiving such an amount anonymously was quite worrying). Since Mary worked in the same foreign country I did, I guess the decision will take just as long. But essentially this really doesn't have any bearing on the current situation or on EL either, it just tops up the Swiss IV payment further to 1st pillar and 2nd pillar received here and the amount is very small compared to the Swiss amounts! Since Mary probably worked about the same amount or slightly less than myself in that country contribution-wise, I guess she is due a mini-pension from them as well.

*
Again, (although not relevant now to Mary's case as it is too late and it has happened the way it happened) this point remains a mystery still to me:

If, a Pensionskasse automatically becomes 'leistungspflichtig' when an IV Rente (40-100%) is granted, why on earth does it clearly state in the conditions of the Freizügigkeitskonto that one of the reasons that the money can be withdrawn by the individual and thereby the account closed is the individual being awarded a 100% IV Rente! That is a total contradiction in itself. It is almost like it is a race to see who can withdraw it first!
The bank clearly didn't know what they were doing by accepting Mary's request for the release of the funds to her, but the Pensionskasse's request annulled Mary's - the bank favoured the Pensionskasse's request over the individual's one.

https://www.postfinance.ch/en/priv/p...en/detail.html

Last edited by plumtree; 13.10.2015 at 22:34.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 13.10.2015, 23:37
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,467
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,230 Times in 824 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Quote:
View Post
Note: The pension decision from the other country (EU/EFTA) can come through much later.
..... But essentially this really doesn't have any bearing on the current situation or on EL either, it just tops up the Swiss IV payment further to 1st pillar and 2nd pillar received here and the amount is very small compared to the Swiss amounts! Since Mary probably worked about the same amount or slightly less than myself in that country contribution-wise, I guess she is due a mini-pension from them as well.
Sorry, no, plumtree. It definitely does have a bearing on the EL, very much so. This is because of the principle I keep repeating: the EL part of the Swiss social security system is not liable to support anyone, at all, who has sufficient income from ALL POSSIBLE sources. Therefore also from all pensions from all sources in Switzerland, and also form other countries.

I’ll try to illustrate, using very much rounded numbers, which amounts and timelines may not reflect the real amounts or delays.

Suppose Mary's Swiss disability Pension (1st Pillar) is CHF 1000, due from 1st January.
She applies for EL on 1st February.
The EL thinks her Swiss disability Pension (1st Pillar) is her only income. Or perhaps they take into account the “Eigenmietwert” of her property, mentioned above.
The EL calculates that Mary’s monthly needs are CHF 2100.
Therefore, the EL pays Mary CHF 1100 per month, due from 1st February.

February to June Mary receives CHF 1100 each month from the EL.

Mary’s Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar) comes through, let us say CHF 600, from 1st November.
The EL MUST be informed of this.

From November, the EL therefore pays Mary CHF 1100 – CHF 600 = CHF 500.

Alternatively, let us say Mary’s Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar) is not CHF 600 but CHF 1200. Then, the EL will stop paying Mary immediately, since CHF 1000 + CHF 1200 = CHF 2200, which exceeds the CHF 2100 which the EL deemed to be Mary’s need.

Now, suppose the Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar) pays from November, but backdates their payments, to correspond with the decree of the Swiss disability Pension (1st Pillar). That means Mary receives the kind of big back-payment of which you speak.

With the higher pension example, the back-payment is January to November = 11 months x CHF 1200. From this, Mary owes the EL, immediately, 11 months x CH 1100, i.e. she has to refund what the EL paid to her although, now that all the facts are on the table and the backdated payments are here, she should not have needed to claim it. From November on, the EL will no longer pay Mary anything.
From November, her monthly income comes from 2 sources:
1100 Swiss disability Pension (1st Pillar)
1200 Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar)
No more EL.
Her income is CHF 100 per month higher.

With the lower pension example, the back-payment is January to November = 11 months x CHF 600. In this case, Mary owes the EL, immediately, 11 months x CH 600, i.e. she has to refund only that part of the EL which is now all covered by the EL.
From November on, the EL will pay Mary CHF 1100 – CHF 600, i.e. only that remaining top-up, up until the CHF 2100 the EL has deemed to be Mary’s need.
From November, her monthly income comes from 3 sources:
1100 Swiss disability Pension (1st Pillar)
600 Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar)
500 EL
Mary’s income is the same. But she is “pulling her own weight” as it were, from the portion of her income coming from her own Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar).

Now, if the pension from another country arrives in November, and is a mere CHF 100 per month, but also back-dated from January, then similarly Mary will have to pay that CHF 100 x 11 months back to the EL. That’s fair and correct. It is the right thing to do. It is the law.

Working with the lower pension example:
From November, Mary’s monthly income comes from 4 sources:
1100 Swiss disability Pension (1st Pillar)
600 Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar)
100 pension from another country
400 EL
Mary’s income is the same. But she is “pulling her own weight” as it were, even more, through the portion of her income coming from her own Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar) and from the pension from another country.

So yes, pensions from abroad ARE relevant to the EL. Just like a Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar), they may arrive later, but the same principle applies, that they must be used, in the first place, to reimburse the money to the EL.

I think you have quite a good understanding of all this, having trodden at least parts of the same paths as Mary. I have spelled it all out in such detail here, in the hope that it will help Mary, herself, when she is fit to face trying to understand the system, and what is right, therein.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #47  
Old 14.10.2015, 09:23
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aargau
Posts: 846
Groaned at 322 Times in 159 Posts
Thanked 324 Times in 229 Posts
plumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthy
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Thank you for the detailed response.
My point was that the decision from the foreign country's pension authority will have no bearing on EL as according to my calculations, using my knowledge, your knowledge and explanations, the online EL calculator, the booklets from IV/AI and common sense, Mary, quite simply put, has absolutely no right to EL in the first place, the figures involved in her case are simply too high.

For a start Mary is older than I am and has worked longer (has a few more years of contributions in Switzerland) so her 1st pillar pension is greater than mine as a base.

In a nutshell SVA-Aargau are paying EL simply because neither Mary nor SVA-Aargau are aware that a 2nd pillar pension is due to be paid monthly and it must be backdated to July 2015, similar to what happened to me, only mine was sorted out much more quickly.

If(!)/when the 2nd pillar pension gets paid out, there is going to be a huge 'back-payment' in one go of all of the months missed so far, then the regular monthly pension from that moment on will commence. Mary will have to pay all of the EL back to SVA-Aargau.
The reason I say this is simple: I am now 99% certain that Mary's second pillar pension (Mary is registered as single and living alone) will take her income way over, and I mean way over(!) the need for monthly EL, the entitlement to a monthly payment is simply not met in any way.

This is why I am saying that for EL, the foreign pension will not be relevant, as I hope by then (by the time it comes through, maybe in a year's time!) Mary will be off EL, will have paid it back, will have cleared her debts and will be on IV 1st and 2nd pillar monthly payments only. At that point the mini-pension from the foreign country will simply be a welcome top up - I was surprised to receive one myself, especially when it came through last year, 2 years after the Swiss IV's decision!
(I have read that each country decides for itself if an IV Rente is due and that they don't simply follow the Swiss decision, they assess the papers themselves first. In my case, (having worked in 4 EU/EFTA countries), I get a Swiss one plus one other, the other two countries did not grant one.)

If on the other hand Mary is still on EL when the foreign 'mini-pension' comes through, again SVA-Aargau are only going to know that it exists if Mary informs them. If she doesn't inform them and she continues to receive the same amount of EL, well then yes I would agree that she is then doing something willfully wrong. But there is a long way to go before we get to any of this.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank plumtree for this useful post:
  #48  
Old 14.10.2015, 11:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,467
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,230 Times in 824 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Thank you, plumtree, I feel relieved now, as you do seem to realise that - always assuming that you are, as I hope too, right that Mary qualifies to draw a Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar) - Mary is drawing those EL while not being entitled to them... or only as a bridging solution until her Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar) is paid out to her. In any case she has a legal obligation to report the Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar) AND the possibility thereof, to the EL office. Not doing so is a serious offence.

To your main question, about how it could come about that the moneys in the Freizügigkeitskonto could have been "retrieved" by the Swiss pension plan (2nd Pillar)... I don't know. It makes perfect sense to me, though, that those in charge of the pension plan would go ahunting to retrieve it, and it seems right to me that they must do so, since they have a legal responsibiltiy to take every step they can to ensure that they have sufficient funding to pay out Mary's Swiss pension plan pension (2nd Pillar). After all, she can't have BOTH the pension and the money in the Freizügigkeitskonto. And as a general principle of the law on pensions (BVG), pensions are preferred over lump sum payments, i.e. the possibility of a cash withdrawal, under the special list of circumstances, definitely takes second priority over securing the pension. The reasoning behind that becomes clear when we imagine Mary having access to her Fr. 35000, spending it to repay her debts, and then having nothing left and only the state disability pension (1st pillar) to live on, and being permanently dependent on the state EL. It is better for the collective (and that, after all, is what state social security benefits are about) that Mary draw as little EL as possible, so there are funds for those who truly have no pension plan pension (2nd pillar). Mary has a duty to not to draw EL at all, if she is entitled to that pension. It is not so that she may freely elect to have EL instead of the pension. And as you anticipate, she need not have any EL at all.

Because of this overriding principal, and the duty to place the responsibilty for the insurance cover correctly - in Mary's case with the Swiss pension plan (2nd pillar) and not with the EL - it would seem logical to me that Mary's Swiss pension plan (2nd pillar) would have preferential access to the Freizügigkeitskonto, a stronger right than Mary's.
How that works, in terms of law, I don't know.
I looked at the link you posted, and some others, about claiming one's Freizügigkeit money on the basis of having a state disability pension (IV-Rente, 1st pillar), and saw some saying that, in applying for the release, one must first have checked with the Swiss pension plan (2nd pillar). That makes sense to me.

Here is the 2nd Pillar Central Office which might be able to explain things:
http://www.sfbvg.ch/xml_2/internet/E...cation/f71.cfm

and here their collection of links to relevant laws:
http://www.sfbvg.ch/xml_2/internet/E...ation/f670.cfm

As I'm sure you realise, I've been writing much of this in the hope that you will be able to show it to Mary. I am still of the opinion that she should write that letter without further delay, so as not to be caught up in some accusations of wrongfully drawing benefits from the EL. That would surely not be good for her health!

plumtree, please know that by persistently inserting "1st pillar" and "2nd pillar" everywhere, I don't for a moment mean to insult your intelligence, as from your writing I gather that you, personally, know the difference clearly. However, perhaps this thread might also serve someone else, one day, who is just starting out trying to hack his or her way through the whole jungle.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #49  
Old 14.10.2015, 12:08
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aargau
Posts: 846
Groaned at 322 Times in 159 Posts
Thanked 324 Times in 229 Posts
plumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthy
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Quote:
View Post
plumtree, please know that by persistently inserting "1st pillar" and "2nd pillar" everywhere, I don't for a moment mean to insult your intelligence, as from your writing I gather that you, personally, know the difference clearly. However, perhaps this thread might also serve someone else, one day, who is just starting out trying to hack his or her way through the whole jungle.
Not at all, on the contrary, it actually makes things much clearer all round. Thank you. You have posted a series of pieces of advice and information on a situation that doesn't come up too often and so hasn't been previously discussed properly, that is most helpful indeed.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank plumtree for this useful post:
  #50  
Old 17.10.2015, 08:56
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aargau
Posts: 846
Groaned at 322 Times in 159 Posts
Thanked 324 Times in 229 Posts
plumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthy
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

I am not making any headway. She insists she must have her money paid out as a capital lump sum, and that what they (both the bank and the pension people) have done is fraudulent and wrong and that them not informing her is just the tip of the iceberg, but to transfer such a large amount of money out of someone's account without consulting her, for her is unacceptable. She also says that she has nothing to do with the former employer since she was fired. I tried to point out that I myself still have to have contact with my employer since they pay my income each month. But no, Mary is having none of it, she is content with her 1st pillar pension and EL...

She won't see a social worker. Upon her insistence I called the bank again yesterday after I took her the week's mail. I spoke to someone I hadn't got before. I said that Mary already has a pension (albeit 1st pillar, - I didn't say it was 1st pillar) and so the transaction paying back the money to the firm was wrong. They said they would contact the pension plan people! Now I am worried...

Do you think there is a chance that the bank will give Mary's bank account number and her new address to the former employer/pension plan people?
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 17.10.2015, 14:04
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,467
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,230 Times in 824 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!



Quote:

But no, Mary is having none of it, she is content with her 1st pillar pension and EL...?
It seems that this is the central flaw in Mary's thinking. She seems to think that she as a right to simply prefer the option of "1st pillar pension and EL". She does not. If she is entitled to a 2nd pillar pension, and is foregoing it, and not declaring it, then she is drawing EL fraudulently. This is, indeed, a reason to worry about her.
Quote:

Do you think there is a chance that the bank will give Mary's bank account number and her new address to the former employer/pension plan people?
Although I'm usually all in favour of total discretion and data protection, etc., I'm beginning to hope that the bank does, in fact, pass on Mary's details to the former employer/pension plan people. That could, I hope, result in the pension plan writing to Mary. Maybe that would start the ball rolling.

I am also beginning to wonder about anyone's (your?) duty to inform the EL of what is going on. Here, too, this is not my usual way of approaching matters, and I think tattle-taling is seldom useful. However, IF Mary is entitled to income from the pension plan (2nd pillar), and not telling the EL about this, then she is doing something seriously wrong that could get her into serious trouble. If Mary cannot or will not understand this, and cannot or will not take the steps that are required of her to fulfil the law, then I'm beginning to think she needs someone to run her affairs. And that someone must be a professional (= not you). Of course, that's just a feeling, from your posts, and I cannot possibly assess the case of someone I don't know, nor would I be so presumptuous!

I know you have said you are completely sure Mary is entitled to the company's pension plan pension (2nd pillar), but it is at least possible that you may be mistaken, for example if there is some factor about Mary's insurance which you just don't happen to know about. And if she is NOT due a pension plan pension (2nd pillar), then perhaps your and my concerns are unfounded.

Have you approached any of the services I suggested for their help?


Last edited by doropfiz; 17.10.2015 at 14:07. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 17.10.2015, 14:18
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,781
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,094 Times in 6,293 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Quote:
View Post
Do you think there is a chance that the bank will give Mary's bank account number and her new address to the former employer/pension plan people?
That would be a criminal offence, a bank will never confirm an account exists or divulge details of it's relationship.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #53  
Old 17.10.2015, 14:21
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,467
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,230 Times in 824 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Yes, fatmanfilms, you are right. At least that they ought not to...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #54  
Old 17.10.2015, 14:59
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aargau
Posts: 846
Groaned at 322 Times in 159 Posts
Thanked 324 Times in 229 Posts
plumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthy
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

[The quote function appears not to work at present for your post.]

You have to understand that is not as simple as sorting something out for someone who is competent and at home. 'Mary' is in a clinic and has been through mobbing, a nervous breakdown, suffers from depression is on medication and of course it doesn't end there.

I am only watering her plants, feeding her cats and dealing with her mail, I have no authorization to contact anyone about anything on her behalf. She has nobody else currently involved in the case. Her family resides in Northern Italy close to the Swiss border.

It is not my personal duty to report anything to SVA-Aargau regarding EL. I only helped Mary with the forms at the time of the decision of the IV coming through. At that moment in time when she signed the forms, the information to her full knowledge was truthful and correct, since she had ordered the bank to pay out a lump sum! It was indicated on the form that she only had 1st pillar IV payments. Only later did it surface that the money was not being paid out in a lump sum but was going to be utilized to pay a pension (2nd pillar).

It is only Mary's duty now, to correct the information, to update the EL department on the real situation. But she will only be able to actually do this when she is:
a) better, health-wise, and in a different frame of mind,
b) back in contact with the employer and/or in contact with the pension plan people, including exchange of address and bank details,
c) the pillar 2 back-payments have been placed in Mary's bank account and a monthly payment of the 2nd pillar is confirmed by the pension plan in writing and effectively begins.
At that stage the EL must be informed (yes I agree with you, by law) of the new situation.

Quote:
View Post
That would be a criminal offence, a bank will never confirm an account exists or divulge details of it's relationship.
Nevertheless it could be slightly different for Freizügigkeit accounts, insofar as the bank has already without informing the account holder/owner of the money, forwarded a large amount of cash to the pension scheme, upon the latter's request by fax! This already is highly irregular. Presumably now if there are queries from the account holder about this, the bank may tell the pension plan that the (now former) account holder has made enquiries as to why the money has suddenly 'disappeared'. At that stage they may pass on further information, like Mary's current address to the pension plan at the latter's request so that the same can contact Mary to arrange a monthly payment.

Moreover, and on the other hand, I guess the pension plan people, since they belong to the same umbrella group as the employer, may be able to get an account number (but not an address as they don't have it) for Mary from the employer as the employer would still have this on record for salary payments that only ended a couple of years ago. This would be passing information on internally within the same company, so may not actually be wrong. If this were to be so, the pension plan people may be able to start making payments without even being in touch with Mary directly, which in essence is exactly what Mary wants (not to be in touch with them).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank plumtree for this useful post:
  #55  
Old 24.10.2015, 11:50
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aargau
Posts: 846
Groaned at 322 Times in 159 Posts
Thanked 324 Times in 229 Posts
plumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthy
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Update.

Mary informed me that she has changed account numbers since being switched to IV & EL, so the account that the employer used to deposit the monthly salary in, which is the same account that the Krankentaggeldversicherung used to deposit the monthly salary, has been closed. This means that even if either one of these communicates the account number to the Pensionskasse, the Pensionskasse still can't pay out anything.

The bank has informed me by phone that they have contacted the Pensionskasse themselves, seeing that we have called and complained so many times.
It is confirmed (again!) that the money was returned to the Pensionskasse as they are 'leistungspflichtig'. They confirm that the Pensionskasse is indeed waiting to pay out the 2nd pillar pension, which has already been calculated!
(Mary certainly does not qualify for monthly EL because the amount she would receive in income (2 pillars in total) is far too high!)

The bank has also sent a letter, saying what they did was correct, as per procedure, but they apologise profusely for not having informed Mary in any way about the change of plan concerning the capital payout.

The bank has now evidently (though it can't be proven) given Mary's new address to the Pensionskasse, as the Pensionskasse has also sent a letter directly to Mary's new address, asking her to fill in a form and provide her bank details along with the confirmation of the 2nd pillar pension - with the monthly amount clearly stated and the fact that they owe her a back payment of the monthly payments from July 2015 onwards.

The confirmation is dated September, so it seems they didn't calculate it straight away, the same wait I had had more or less, two-three months.

Until Mary reacts to this letter from the Pensionskasse, I think things will remain as they are, unless the Pensionskasse tries to send the money via postal order or something bizarre like that, Mary actually isn't receiving the money/the pension.
Moreover, if Mary does not respond to the letter she will be effectively living off less money than she would have, were her affairs in order, and if she did sort things out she could get rid of the hassle of the EL too!
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 24.10.2015, 12:04
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,781
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,094 Times in 6,293 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Quote:
View Post
Update.

Mary informed me that she has changed account numbers since being switched to IV & EL, so the account that the employer used to deposit the monthly salary in, which is the same account that the Krankentaggeldversicherung used to deposit the monthly salary, has been closed. This means that even if either one of these communicates the account number to the Pensionskasse, the Pensionskasse still can't pay out anything.

The bank has informed me by phone that they have contacted the Pensionskasse themselves, seeing that we have called and complained so many times.
It is confirmed (again!) that the money was returned to the Pensionskasse as they are 'leistungspflichtig'. They confirm that the Pensionskasse is indeed waiting to pay out the 2nd pillar pension, which has already been calculated!
(Mary certainly does not qualify for monthly EL because the amount she would receive in income (2 pillars in total) is far too high!)

The bank has also sent a letter, saying what they did was correct, as per procedure, but they apologise profusely for not having informed Mary in any way about the change of plan concerning the capital payout.

The bank has now evidently (though it can't be proven) given Mary's new address to the Pensionskasse, as the Pensionskasse has also sent a letter directly to Mary's new address, asking her to fill in a form and provide her bank details along with the confirmation of the 2nd pillar pension - with the monthly amount clearly stated and the fact that they owe her a back payment of the monthly payments from July 2015 onwards.

The confirmation is dated September, so it seems they didn't calculate it straight away, the same wait I had had more or less, two-three months.

Until Mary reacts to this letter from the Pensionskasse, I think things will remain as they are, unless the Pensionskasse tries to send the money via postal order or something bizarre like that, Mary actually isn't receiving the money/the pension.
Moreover, if Mary does not respond to the letter she will be effectively living off less money than she would have, were her affairs in order, and if she did sort things out she could get rid of the hassle of the EL too!
Clearly Mary is trying to cheat the system, not allowing the pension money does not get her off the hook. I hope she gets caught & prosecuted.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 24.10.2015, 12:26
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aargau
Posts: 846
Groaned at 322 Times in 159 Posts
Thanked 324 Times in 229 Posts
plumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthy
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Quote:
View Post
Clearly Mary is trying to cheat the system, not allowing the pension money does not get her off the hook. I hope she gets caught & prosecuted.
Mary is not officially aware that she is entitled to the 2nd pillar pension. The letter has only just arrived today, and by ordinary post (not recorded delivery). She is not at home. She is in a clinic. Officially she herself is doing nothing wrong.

How is she trying to cheat the system? She is actually worse off on EL than if she opted to claim her pension.

If/when her condition improves, it would be wise/better for her to switch to the pension and pay back the EL with the pension backpay she would/will receive.

I myself was in a similar position, though I knew in advance more or less what was happening. I received IV (1st pillar only) plus EL, but only for a couple of months, whilst the 2nd pillar pension was being calculated, it took just over 2 months for the Pensionskasse to do it.
I then simply asked the SVA-Aargau to recalculate my position. They did and I paid back the three months worth of EL that I had received. I had no problem in doing this as firstly I knew full well I would have to, and secondly, I received a greater monthly amount in backpay in the form of a 2nd pillar pension.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 24.10.2015, 12:37
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,781
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,094 Times in 6,293 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Quote:
View Post
Mary is not officially aware that she is entitled to the 2nd pillar pension. The letter has only just arrived today, and by ordinary post (not recorded delivery). She is not at home. She is in a clinic. Officially she herself is doing nothing wrong.

How is she trying to cheat the system? She is actually worse off on EL than if she opted to claim her pension.

If/when her condition improves, it would be wise/better for her to switch to the pension and pay back the EL with the pension backpay she would/will receive.

I myself was in a similar position, though I knew in advance more or less what was happening. I received IV (1st pillar only) plus EL, but only for a couple of months, whilst the 2nd pillar pension was being calculated, it took just over 2 months for the Pensionskasse to do it.
I then simply asked the SVA-Aargau to recalculate my position. They did and I paid back the three months worth of EL that I had received. I had no problem in doing this as firstly I knew full well I would have to, and secondly, I received a greater monthly amount in backpay in the form of a 2nd pillar pension.
I think Mary knows what she is doing & thinks everybody else is stupid. You appear to share her view, as I said I hope she gets caught.

Mary is doing everything possible to prevent the pension providers to do what they are supposed to do.

The pension providers will be holding the money to Mary's account, it's an identical position to having money in her own bank account, rather like throwing away your cash card & saying you on't have access to the money.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 24.10.2015, 12:41
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aargau
Posts: 846
Groaned at 322 Times in 159 Posts
Thanked 324 Times in 229 Posts
plumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthyplumtree is considered unworthy
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

Quote:
View Post
I think Mary knows what she is doing & thinks everybody else is stupid. You appear to share her view, as I said I hope she gets caught.

Mary is doing everything possible to prevent the pension providers to do what they are supposed to do.
It is up to Mary to inform SVA-Aargau. I only deal with her mail. I don't have any authority to intervene any more than I already have done, on her behalf.

Mary would be better off eliminating the EL and opting for the 2nd pillar pension, with this I agree.

However try telling that to someone who is currently very ill and sitting in a clinic surrounded by other people who are also very ill. And let's not forget the reason it has got to this point, i.e. just why Mary has had a breakdown and is so ill, is the ongoing mobbing and abuse from the employer (which owns the Pensionskasse that Mary wants no contact with).

Last edited by plumtree; 24.10.2015 at 14:21.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 24.10.2015, 14:11
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,781
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,094 Times in 6,293 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pensionskasse changes their mind!

The employer never owns the pension fund, they are not even allowed to control it by law.

They may have a similar name, but that's not the same as ownership.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
bank account, disability benefit, freizuegigkeitskonto, pension fund, pensionskasse




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Contract changes if Permit changes? san360 Permits/visas/government 1 19.08.2013 20:42
Pensionskasse sfiki Insurance 7 24.04.2009 11:14
People should just mind their own business... barbie0676 Complaints corner 9 03.10.2007 23:49
B-Permit approved and Employer changes mind shaz Permits/visas/government 3 03.09.2007 22:09


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0