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Old 07.07.2015, 13:42
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Pillar 3A fonds

Hello everyone!

I'm thinking about opening a pillar 3a Fonds and was wondering what you guys think about this one at Raiffeisenbank:
https://www.raiffeisen.ch/raiffeisen/internet/home.nsf/0/DF629972A00E2DDAC125785400388C7E/$FILE/PensionGrowth-d.pdf

its a Fond with 67% in stocks, the TER is not cheap at 0.92%, and it seems you have to pay 3% when buying in.

Is there anything compareable? I could also go for less % in Stocks if the TER is much lower or there are some other benefits.

Looking foreward to your opinions.
Cheers, Hanno
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Old 07.07.2015, 13:54
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

Where do you see the 3% ?

I've never paid a fee like that for investing in a P3A fund.
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Old 07.07.2015, 14:03
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

https://www.raiffeisen.ch/raiffeisen/internet/home.nsf/0/A8239E2081EA75DEC125781C002BEDBA/$FILE/KIID%20Raiffeisen%20Pension%20Growth%20A_DE.pdf
Here it says that in German on page 2, it says you have to pay 3% once when investing, but 3% is the highest value and it depends on special deals. maybe its just a general thing rather than for Pillar 3a.

Einmalige Kosten vor und nach der Anlage

Ausgabeaufschlag 3,00%
Rücknahmeabschlag nicht anwendbar
Dabei handelt es sich um den Höchstbetrag, der von Ihrer Anlage vor der
Anlage und vor der Auszahlung Ihrer Anlage abgezogen wird.
Kosten, die vom Teilvermögen im Laufe des Jahres abgezogen werden
Laufende Kosten 0,84%
Kosten, die das Teilvermögen unter bestimmten Umständen zu tragen hat
Performancegebühr nicht anwendbar
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Old 07.07.2015, 14:20
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

Sound expensive, I would look for something better
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Old 07.07.2015, 14:54
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

Yes I am looking for something but I couldnt find anything that great yet. All Fonds are like maximum 30-45 % invested in stocks which is not that great in my position, and the expenses are also not that low, sometimes even higher.
The 1.2% maximum which you get on normal interests is also not really an option.
Did someone find anything good yet? Im sure some must be invested in some 3a fonds here
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Old 07.07.2015, 14:58
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

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Yes I am looking for something but I couldnt find anything that great yet. All Fonds are like maximum 30-45 % invested in stocks which is not that great in my position, and the expenses are also not that low, sometimes even higher.
The 1.2% maximum which you get on normal interests is also not really an option.
Did someone find anything good yet? Im sure some must be invested in some 3a fonds here
Why not just invest the money where you want to in the fund you want? Tax saving & good investment decisions rarely go hand in hand.
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Old 07.07.2015, 15:02
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

Yes thank you, I will do some investing aside from this, but I feel like I have to use the Tax deduction for my retirement as well and am looking for the best options out there
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Old 07.07.2015, 15:23
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

Ask your bank - the Pillar 3a funds from the big providers are all pretty similar, and none I've come across charge particularly high fees.

For me the tax saving is worth it as part of a diversified investment

- pillar 2 is mandatory but the returns suck, it's very safe though
- pillar 3a forms my "low risk" diversification (even though I've selected the highest risk fund, it's pretty restricted) helped by the initial tax break
- the rest is aimed for good growth in normal investments
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Old 07.07.2015, 16:06
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

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Yes thank you, I will do some investing aside from this, but I feel like I have to use the Tax deduction for my retirement as well and am looking for the best options out there
The pension fund is taxable when you cash it in, if the fund grows 5 times you will pay far more tax by investing through a pension, remember there is no CGT in Switzerland.
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Old 07.07.2015, 16:26
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

Look at something like this:

http://www.ubs.com/ch/en/swissbank/p...mentfunds.html
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Old 07.07.2015, 16:33
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

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The pension fund is taxable when you cash it in, if the fund grows 5 times you will pay far more tax by investing through a pension, remember there is no CGT in Switzerland.
No matter what happens you save the difference in the normal tax rate and the reduced pillar 3a cash in rate, and that cash in rate is aparently about 5% for Zurich.

The tax saving you effectively invested in the pillar 3a will also have grown 5 times.

A worked example (using round numbers, I know the amounts are above the allowance):

10000 invested in P3a == 8000 net paid after tax rebate

50000 after 5x growth == 40000 after 5x growth if not in P3a

47500 available after 5% tax == 40000 available with no CGT

I used the calculator here: http://www.pens-expert.ch/en/pensfre...ithdrawals.php
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Old 07.07.2015, 16:55
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

But you do have to pay those 5% no matter if you invest in funds or just get interests somewhere, right?

@Golfer, this one looks interesting with that TER. I will have a closer look thanks
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Old 07.07.2015, 17:00
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

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But you do have to pay those 5% no matter if you invest in funds or just get interests somewhere, right?

@Golfer, this one looks interesting with that TER. I will have a closer look thanks
Not exactly - as fatmanfilms says, you don't pay tax on capital gains, so a straight investment in stocks (so called pillar 3b) doesn't pay tax on the price gains.

You do pay tax on dividends and interest as though it was income.
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Old 09.07.2015, 14:57
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

I just wrote to several providers to get some informations about their products. I will see who has the cheapest rates alltogether and then decide.
Thanks for your informations and tips meanwhile
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Old 09.07.2015, 19:39
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

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No matter what happens you save the difference in the normal tax rate and the reduced pillar 3a cash in rate, and that cash in rate is aparently about 5% for Zurich.

The tax saving you effectively invested in the pillar 3a will also have grown 5 times.

A worked example (using round numbers, I know the amounts are above the allowance):

10000 invested in P3a == 8000 net paid after tax rebate

50000 after 5x growth == 40000 after 5x growth if not in P3a

47500 available after 5% tax == 40000 available with no CGT

I used the calculator here: http://www.pens-expert.ch/en/pensfre...ithdrawals.php
You have no idea of future tax rates, which is a considerable risk you are ignoring.
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You do pay tax on dividends and interest as though it was income.
Buy Berkshire Hathaway which does not pay a dividend
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Old 09.07.2015, 20:31
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

BVG rules state only up to a certain % can be in equities, so you won't find higher risk ones really. Look at Pictet, I invested in one (have to have pillar 3 for mortgage) which has a good TER and good equity exposure. They are resold by many banks here
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Old 09.07.2015, 21:12
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Re: Pillar 3A fonds

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BVG rules state only up to a certain % can be in equities, so you won't find higher risk ones really. Look at Pictet, I invested in one (have to have pillar 3 for mortgage) which has a good TER and good equity exposure. They are resold by many banks here
It's a big shame it's so over regulated, a pension is a long term investment so it should be possible to have 100% in equities. I had my frozen pension with Pictet, good for CH but really lack lustre performance in reality.
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