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Old 31.08.2015, 20:10
Kal Kal is offline
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Taxation when changing from B to C permit

Hello,

can any knowledgeable person comment on whether the following assessment sounds right....


During 2013 I was B permit (so taxed at source) from Jan to Nov. Then changed to C permit at the start of December and was not taxed at source for that month. (All as expected)

During the year I had too much tax deducted while on a B permit, by approx 5000chf.

I did a tax return because I was a C permit at the end of the year and the tax office asked. The eventual response from the Vaud tax office was an acknowledgement that I had overpaid (but nothing refunded).

Then in Aug 2015, 8 months later, I receive a tax bill for income tax for the month of December ONLY.

I queried as to why I was being asked to pay more for December when I had already overpaid for the entire year.

The response (from my fiduciaire) was that the period while I was B permit was irrelevant. I earnt less than 120000 so a tax return wasn't necessary and there would be no refund. Additionally, I would need to pay the tax supposedly for December.

To me this sounds bizarre, bordering on unethical. I have already overpaid, regardless of what permit I was on. Is this worth arguing???

Have I missed something obvious???

Thanks for any comments :-)
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Old 31.08.2015, 20:51
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

It's BS.

When I went from tax at source to normal (was still on a B, but married a Swiss mid year), all that years tax was paid back to me immediately, and I was then billed normally.

Tom
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Old 31.08.2015, 20:56
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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It's BS.

When I went from tax at source to normal (was still on a B, but married a Swiss mid year), all that years tax was paid back to me immediately, and I was then billed normally.

Tom
How was the tax refunded?? By the tax office? By your employer?

Thanks again.
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Old 31.08.2015, 21:21
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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How was the tax refunded?? By the tax office? By your employer?
As I recall, the tax office.

It happened a send time when we moved to TI, and they decided to tax me at source. After a year or so, they decided I earned too much for their computers to deal with (but less then the EF 120k), and gave it all back, with a bill some months later.

Tom
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Old 31.08.2015, 21:24
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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It's BS.

When I went from tax at source to normal (was still on a B, but married a Swiss mid year), all that years tax was paid back to me immediately, and I was then billed normally.

Tom
That's what happened to us too. The source tax already paid was refunded by the tax office and we were taxed normally for the rest of the year. We kept the refunded tax to one side as we knew we'd have to pay most of it back to them eventually.
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Old 31.08.2015, 21:37
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

This is so helpful. Thanks to all.

I have a suspicion that my situation regarding a refund may have become confused because I was working in different cantons (Zurich & Fribourg) to the one I live in (Vaud).
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Old 31.08.2015, 22:23
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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It's BS.

When I went from tax at source to normal (was still on a B, but married a Swiss mid year), all that years tax was paid back to me immediately, and I was then billed normally.

Tom
Same here (without the marring a Swiss) I didn't actually receive the tax back but it was transferred internally to be an advance payment for my tax as a C permit holder. Worth an appeal. They can and do make mistakes someones a person can give you incorrect information.
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Old 01.09.2015, 06:37
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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Hello,

can any knowledgeable person comment on whether the following assessment sounds right....


During 2013 I was B permit (so taxed at source) from Jan to Nov. Then changed to C permit at the start of December and was not taxed at source for that month. (All as expected)

During the year I had too much tax deducted while on a B permit, by approx 5000chf.

I did a tax return because I was a C permit at the end of the year and the tax office asked. The eventual response from the Vaud tax office was an acknowledgement that I had overpaid (but nothing refunded).

Then in Aug 2015, 8 months later, I receive a tax bill for income tax for the month of December ONLY.

I queried as to why I was being asked to pay more for December when I had already overpaid for the entire year.

The response (from my fiduciaire) was that the period while I was B permit was irrelevant. I earnt less than 120000 so a tax return wasn't necessary and there would be no refund. Additionally, I would need to pay the tax supposedly for December.

To me this sounds bizarre, bordering on unethical. I have already overpaid, regardless of what permit I was on. Is this worth arguing???

Have I missed something obvious???

Thanks for any comments :-)
Under 120k you have no obligation to file, but you have the right. I did and got a refund one year. Escalate the question, as their response makes no sense.
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Old 01.09.2015, 10:02
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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Under 120k you have no obligation to file, but you have the right. I did and got a refund one year. Escalate the question, as their response makes no sense.
That's right. You can file a tax return on a B-permit every year if you so desire, even if your income is a mere Fr.12'000.-- a year, they will still process it.
If you want to claim a refund, every year, it makes sense to. I did and had a refund of at least the withholding tax every year whilst on a B-permit.
A colleague of mine (Swiss) told me her future husband was starting naturalization, had been here for 20 years or so, but was still on a B-permit and had never filed a tax return. I could not understand why, as I thought then how does he get the withholding tax back, she told me he didn't claim it! On the reverse side, she could not understand how I had managed to file a tax return whilst I had been on a B-permit. I told her I had received the forms automatically every year since arrival as I had for just a few months declared myself as self-employed at the very beginning and they had me in their system.

Last edited by plumtree; 01.09.2015 at 10:03. Reason: minor
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Old 01.09.2015, 10:11
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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A colleague of mine (Swiss) told me her future husband was starting naturalization, had been here for 20 years or so, but was still on a B-permit and had never filed a tax return. I could not understand why, as I thought then how does he get the withholding tax back, she told me he didn't claim it!
That sounds a bit strange. I thought that being married to a Swiss meant you were no longer subject to tax at source and were liable for 'normal taxation' and therefore had to fill out a tax return.
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Old 01.09.2015, 10:24
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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It's BS.

When I went from tax at source to normal (was still on a B, but married a Swiss mid year), all that years tax was paid back to me immediately, and I was then billed normally.

Tom
I think it's a Kantonal thing as to how it's done.

What happened with me is that I got my C in February a couple of years back. However I still had to pay QS for the first quarter of the year as Zürich works on a 3 month QS reporting and collection system.

Then my final tax bill was calculated on my earnings for the full year, but minus the QS I'd already paid.
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Old 01.09.2015, 10:30
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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That sounds a bit strange. I thought that being married to a Swiss meant you were no longer subject to tax at source and were liable for 'normal taxation' and therefore had to fill out a tax return.
"Future husband", in this case, so it makes sense.

We just went to the tax office and asked to declare taxes while on a B permit (I had pillar 3, and the kid went to daycare, so those were both deductions). It was not a problem - we were sent tax forms that first year, with an automatic filing extension until we figured it out.
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Old 01.09.2015, 10:37
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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That sounds a bit strange. I thought that being married to a Swiss meant you were no longer subject to tax at source and were liable for 'normal taxation' and therefore had to fill out a tax return.
Someone still on a B-permit (and who doesn't ever apply for a C-permit in the meantime) is subject to tax at source until the citizenship is granted I believe.
The naturalization process started off was an ordinary one (not linked to the marrying factor), citizen of Montenegro, resident for over 20 years.

Last edited by plumtree; 01.09.2015 at 10:38. Reason: minor
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Old 01.09.2015, 16:14
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

So, went to try & talk to the local tax office about this.... Some Captain Mainwaring type simply informed me that it was just too bad that I had paid too much while on a B permit and I was not entitled to any refund and would have to pay more for December. Just jaw-dropping...

Does anyone know the mechanics to get this escalated & reviewed, in Vaud?? My fiduciaire says she will send a letter but if it goes to the same office that did the assessment, I can't see that they will admit error..

Thanks all
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Old 01.09.2015, 16:39
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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"Future husband", in this case, so it makes sense.

We just went to the tax office and asked to declare taxes while on a B permit (I had pillar 3, and the kid went to daycare, so those were both deductions). It was not a problem - we were sent tax forms that first year, with an automatic filing extension until we figured it out.
Oops I missed the 'future' bit.
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Old 01.09.2015, 16:54
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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Does anyone know the mechanics to get this escalated & reviewed, in Vaud?? My fiduciaire says she will send a letter but if it goes to the same office that did the assessment, I can't see that they will admit error..
Instruction how to object and relevant time limits are on the bill.
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Old 01.09.2015, 17:19
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

Here the Swiss tax system explaind:

German http://www.estv.admin.ch/dokumentati...x.html?lang=de

French http://www.estv.admin.ch/dokumentati...x.html?lang=fr

Italian http://www.estv.admin.ch/dokumentati...x.html?lang=it

The income tax period and calculation period is normally a full calendar year. Exception are, you move aboard, you moved from aboard, death.

Some cantons mention that a sub annual taxation must be done if someone changes from tax at source to normal taxation (I can understand why it may be needed in the opposite case.)

LU https://steuern.lu.ch/steuererklaeru...p_unterjaehrig,
AG https://steuern.lu.ch/steuererklaeru...p_unterjaehrig)
SG http://www.steuern.sg.ch/home/sachth...bemessung.html


Cantons which have no sub annual taxation, when changing from tax at source to normal tax:

GR https://steuern.lu.ch/steuererklaeru...p_unterjaehrig
BL https://www.baselland.ch/fileadmin/b...uerpflicht.pdf
TG http://steuerverwaltung.steuerpraxis...56F2E8B90.html
BE http://www.fin.be.ch/fin/de/index/st...aehrige_de.pdf
ZG http://www.zg.ch/behoerden/finanzdir...-siehe-ss-46-b

In the worst case you have to go to the federal court.
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Old 01.09.2015, 17:26
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

From my point of view, at least for federal tax Art. 3, 8, 40 and 41 do not allow sub annual taxation when changing from tax at source to normal tax.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classifi...329/index.html
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Old 01.09.2015, 17:40
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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From my point of view, at least for federal tax Art. 3, 8, 40 and 41 do not allow sub annual taxation when changing from tax at source to normal tax.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classifi...329/index.html
I'm not sure it makes any difference if it's done properly - I did the B-C switch in SG and got two tax returns.

Both had everything pro-rated so the net result was the same (apart from extra accountant fees, but that's not the gemeinde's fault). On the B I got a refund as usual but smaller due to the reduced period, on the C the estimate is probably too high but I'll get it back next year.

Edit: I guess you could have all your claimable costs in one of the periods, so you end up with negative tax liability which would break the pro-rata setup. But that would be odd (and stupid).
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Old 01.09.2015, 17:52
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Re: Taxation when changing from B to C permit

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I'm not sure it makes any difference if it's done properly - I did the B-C switch in SG and got two tax returns.
It makes a difference when done properly in your favor when you live in a low tax commune, where tax at source is overestimated. In SG that's Rapperswil-Jona.
It makes a difference when done properly in the tax mans favor when you live in a high tax commune, where tax at source is underestimated. In ZH that's Zurich.
It makes no or little difference when you live in median tax commune. In VD that is Vevey (it is slightly above). Expect you have a lot of extra deductibles.

@Kal: Do the calculations before you complain, what is actually better and in your favor?

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Edit: I guess you could have all your claimable costs in one of the periods, so you end up with negative tax liability which would break the pro-rata setup. But that would be odd (and stupid).
The law has rules how the claimable costs have to be accounted.
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