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Old 12.09.2015, 20:08
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State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

Hi all,

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but I couldn't find any information on it when I tried to search.

So, I'm an American citizen living & working in Switzerland with my wife, who is Swiss, and my son, who is currently only Swiss. We've debated whether or not to get him American citizenship, and there's been a question that's nagging me.

Currently, I still have to pay state taxes in the last state I lived in while in the United States. How would this work for my son, if he has never lived in the U.S.?

My instinct is that he wouldn't have any state taxes, but with the amount of errors I've received in my state tax forms in the last two years, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some automated system that would screw him over. (California just sent me separate tax forms for both my and my wife, on different accounts, with all the same exact information and fees, not including my taxes already paid, and the form addressed to me arrived later as it was incorrectly sent to Svalbard instead of Switzerland.)



Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice or help.
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Old 12.09.2015, 20:14
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Re: State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

I don't know anything about state taxes (or taxes in general) - but I believe the general consensus in this forum about getting American citizenship for children is: "If you love them, just don't".
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Old 12.09.2015, 20:26
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Re: State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

If you meet the three criteria below, you should be able to stop filing a California tax return:

Avoiding California State Income Taxes Moving Abroad


It is often difficult to give up your obligation to pay California taxes when starting to work abroad. California is an "Intent State." That California wants to continue to tax you until you show the intent of moving your tax domicile to another country or state. They look at all of the facts and circumstances in retrospect years later to determine if you actually had the "intent" to move your tax residency to another country.

There is a solution to the ambiguities involved with successfully giving up your California residency for tax purposes. That is the Safe Harbor Rule which can be used. Under that rule:
  • You must remain living and working outside of California for at least 546 days under a contract of employment;
  • You do not have more than $200,000 in investment income;
  • You do not return to California more than 45 days during any calendar year.
If you meet these criteria, you are automatically deemed to be a California nonresident for the period you work abroad even though you may still have a California drivers license, voter registration, etc.

It is important to successfully avoid California tax domicile status when living abroad since California does not allow the foreign earned income exclusion or foreign tax credits. If means if you remain a California tax resident a lot of taxes may be due.

http://usexpatriate.blogspot.ch/2012...ome-taxes.html

Also, this Wall Street Journal blog on children born abroad to Americans might be worth reading:

http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2015/02/1...s-citizenship/
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Old 12.09.2015, 20:27
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Re: State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

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Currently, I still have to pay state taxes in the last state I lived in while in the United States.
Do you still have California sourced income or are they just trying to milk whatever they can out of you? California FTB sucks but if you aren't a resident there and you have no income that can be attributed there, you should be able to tell them to eff off pretty easily.

I cut my ties clearly with California by moving to Nevada prior to moving here. If I ever move back to California, I'll make sure to become a resident in Nevada first as I've heard some bad stories about the Califronia FTB upon repatriation.

Your son has no California obligations.
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Old 12.09.2015, 21:08
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Re: State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

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I'm an American citizen living & working in Switzerland with my wife, who is Swiss, and my son, who is currently only Swiss. We've debated whether or not to get him American citizenship, and there's been a question that's nagging me.
He's a US citizen, regardless of whether you get him a passport or not.

Unfortunately.

Tom
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Old 12.09.2015, 21:27
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Re: State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

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Do you still have California sourced income or are they just trying to milk whatever they can out of you? California FTB sucks but if you aren't a resident there and you have no income that can be attributed there, you should be able to tell them to eff off pretty easily.

I cut my ties clearly with California by moving to Nevada prior to moving here. If I ever move back to California, I'll make sure to become a resident in Nevada first as I've heard some bad stories about the Califronia FTB upon repatriation.

Your son has no California obligations.
I have a limited partnership from which I receive funds. I'm not so concerned about the California tax as the other thing, because eventually I can get a hold of a human to take care of it, even if it reportedly difficult for even the people in the know.

Thanks, though. It's good info for when I divest myself of that asset.

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Old 12.09.2015, 21:54
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Re: State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

I guess you know all about FATCA? and the tax implications?
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Old 13.09.2015, 16:31
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Re: State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

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I guess you know all about FATCA? and the tax implications?
I do, thanks. Kind of hard to live here and not know about it.

Side question: How does one thank a post on these forums? I've seen it alluded to, but I've not found the option myself.
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Old 13.09.2015, 17:19
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Re: State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

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I do, thanks. Kind of hard to live here and not know about it.

Side question: How does one thank a post on these forums? I've seen it alluded to, but I've not found the option myself.
You'll see the Thanks button once you have 10 posts.
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Old 10.01.2017, 23:11
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Hi LegioCorvus,

The term "American citizen" appears to mix two separate political statuses: 1) American national is a California state citizen; 2) US citizen is under the jurisdiction of the UNITED STATES, where 28 USC 3002 §15(A) defines "United States" as "a Federal corporation" (http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?p...edition=prelim).

As a California state citizen, one is pledged to repay the US Federal debt, which is over $19T: http://www.usdebtclock.org (This link deceptively mixes two separate entities US NATIONAL, where National, much less should it be in all capital letters (capitis diminutio: https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/capitis-diminutio/ (Black's Law Dictionary, 4th edition has most accurate legal definition) does not belong and US FEDERAL is the correct entity.

US citizens were pledged to repay the US Federal Debt via income taxation regardless of where one has an abode.

Your son is safe from being naturalized as a US citizen as long as his being born was not reported to the US Embassy (to be registered/reported with Vital Statistics) and an SS-5 (Application for Social Security Number) was not submitted.

The IRS won't accept promissory notes, but they will accept a Bill of Exchange for tax payments. As a US citizen, Franklin Roosevelt passed House Joint Resolution 192 in 1933. To create and use a Bill of Exchange, one need to study the truth behind American civics. US Public Education was influenced by the Nazi Germans who fled Europe after WWII using British issued passports. They ended up in US and in Argentina.

If you and your wife were married in the State of California, then it appears that the License and Certificate of Marriage issued fictionalized her name, indicated by the use of capitis diminutio maxima.

Hope this gives you incentive to learn American history for your son's benefit.

If you're interested in correcting your political status from US citizen to California state citizen (I'm currently working on this process...), then you might consider reviewing the following links:

state Citizen passport: https://youtu.be/8xbfqZrql68

US Passports for State Citizen and classes: http://www.destinationfreedom.org

Dept of State's Certificate of non-citizen nationality: https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...tionality.html

Example filled out passport form: http://coppermoonshinestills.com/id71.html

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I don't know anything about state taxes (or taxes in general) - but I believe the general consensus in this forum about getting American citizenship for children is: "If you love them, just don't".
Appreciating this quote that I never heard before. About taxes from feudal times, the money went to the monarchy and the land belonged to the church.

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If you meet the three criteria below, you should be able to stop filing a California tax return:

Avoiding California State Income Taxes Moving Abroad


It is often difficult to give up your obligation to pay California taxes when starting to work abroad. California is an "Intent State." That California wants to continue to tax you until you show the intent of moving your tax domicile to another country or state. They look at all of the facts and circumstances in retrospect years later to determine if you actually had the "intent" to move your tax residency to another country.

There is a solution to the ambiguities involved with successfully giving up your California residency for tax purposes. That is the Safe Harbor Rule which can be used. Under that rule:
  • You must remain living and working outside of California for at least 546 days under a contract of employment;
  • You do not have more than $200,000 in investment income;
  • You do not return to California more than 45 days during any calendar year.
If you meet these criteria, you are automatically deemed to be a California nonresident for the period you work abroad even though you may still have a California drivers license, voter registration, etc.

It is important to successfully avoid California tax domicile status when living abroad since California does not allow the foreign earned income exclusion or foreign tax credits. If means if you remain a California tax resident a lot of taxes may be due.

http://usexpatriate.blogspot.ch/2012...ome-taxes.html

Also, this Wall Street Journal blog on children born abroad to Americans might be worth reading:

http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2015/02/1...s-citizenship/
While this information may be correct, former IRS agent in criminal division Joe Banister (http://freedomabovefortune.com) revealed the income tax is voluntary but only for state citizens. US citizens are pledged to repay the US Federal debt, ironically with annuity bonds or promissory notes. Repaying debt with debt explains the US Federal debt closing in on $20T.

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He's a US citizen, regardless of whether you get him a passport or not.

Unfortunately.

Tom
Making an assumption is part of the problem with becoming automatically a US citizen. I find it helpful to define every word using Black's Law Dictionary 4th edition (1968) because the English language appears to be legalese, which our US Public education prevent its minors from learning.

Last edited by mirfield; 11.01.2017 at 10:42. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
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Old 11.01.2017, 12:02
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Re: State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

Lol Shana,

What is a federation? What makes up in particular the federation of the united states of America? Its member states.

A citizen of a member state is thus automatically also a citizen of the federation. And by constitutional rights (Article IV) a citizen of a member state of the U.S.A. has the same rights and obligations a citizen of any other member state.

It is the same with Switzerland which is also a federation (sometimes also called confederation as back then confederation meant what federation means today). But we have one level more. Here we are first and foremost are a citizen of a town (was important in the past as welfare was handed out by your home town), then a citizen of state/canton where the town is (was important in the past as you were enlisted in the cantons army), and finally because the canton is a member of the Swiss confederation, also a citizen of Switzerland.

So, as long a California does not secede form the federation your California state citizenship does not change anything. No, in the contrary, it further signify your status a citizen of the federation of the united states of America. Or in short, as a U.S. citizen.

Now, what you have to find is a town which does NOT belong to one of the member states of the U.S.A. Then you have to declare yourself a citizen of that town and officially renounce any citizenship with any member state, or any town of a member state of the U.S.A.

This means you must become a citizen of Washington D.C. as this is the only town which does not belong to any of the member states. Because it does not belong to any member state there is also no representation in congress and senate.

People living in in D.C. can be taxed based on local rules and legislation. But citizen of D.C. can not be taxed aboard as they are not citizen of the federation.

(PS: I think the above post is total mind . Which means it could be mind rape. Luckily, this is no crime in any country on this planet. )
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Old 11.01.2017, 18:43
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Re: State Taxes for Americans born abroad?

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What makes up in particular the federation of the united states of America? Its member states.
I appreciate your usage of the lower case letter used in "united". This shows that there is a difference in grammar usage, i.e. lower case "u" for a past tense verb, as opposed to upper case/capitalized "U" which indicated a proper noun as in United States.

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A citizen of a member state is thus automatically also a citizen of the federation.
I am finding more cases where syntax and grammar are not used in practice, and this is the reason why state citizens are misidentifying themselves as US citizens.

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And by constitutional rights (Article IV) a citizen of a member state of the U.S.A. has the same rights and obligations a citizen of any other member state.
Written on the Declaration of Independence (1776), the past tense verb "united" is not capitalized (http://constitutionus.com/images_dec...on_engrav.html). This past tense verb is not the same as the entity U.S. or US or UNITED STATES or USA or UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

The District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 created the US entity (see above more variants) was passed by congress (https://archive.org/details/District...ganicActOf1871).

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It is the same with Switzerland which is also a federation (sometimes also called confederation as back then confederation meant what federation means today).
I recently discovered that John A. Sutter (Swiss father/German mother) arrived in San Francisco before the "gold rush", which was "found" on his property that eventually became Sacramento. His visage remains on the Native Sons Building at 414 Mason Street, San Francisco (https://www.emporis.com/buildings/20...ancisco-ca-usa). There is definite Swiss influence in California, and California is the where most legislation has a trial run before other States adopt the same/similar legislation.

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But we have one level more. Here we are first and foremost are a citizen of a town (was important in the past as welfare was handed out by your home town), then a citizen of state/canton where the town is (was important in the past as you were enlisted in the cantons army), and finally because the canton is a member of the Swiss confederation, also a citizen of Switzerland.
This is very helpful information. It appears that being a citizen of Switzerland is the same as being a citizen of United States. In my case, I was issued my fourth Aufenthaltsbewilligung (B), so I just completed my third year. The questions that come to mind: Do I establish my citizenship of Affoltern a.A. upon completing the five years? Does this also apply to citizenship of Zurich canton?

As I continue my studies into the private side, I would be interested in not getting into the same situation here in Switzerland as I find myself with United States. My partner, like the average Swiss, is nearly taxed to death with fees and the cost of living. Any feedback you provide is most appreciated.

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So, as long a California does not secede form the federation your California state citizenship does not change anything. No, in the contrary, it further signify your status a citizen of the federation of the united states of America. Or in short, as a U.S. citizen.
Interestingly, there's a Yes California separatist group arranged an "embassy" in Moscow:
https://www.rt.com/usa/370698-calexi...mbassy-moscow/
http://www.businessinsider.com/yes-c...russia-2016-12

California state is not the same as STATE OF CALIFORNIA, which is a franchise for UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. This explains why there is a Franchise Tax Board: https://www.ftb.ca.gov. US citizens are charged a franchise tax for using the copyrighted symbols, such as CA or zip codes, etc, and not correcting the political status using the Minnesota Rule 220. https://www.revisor.mn.gov/court_rul...type=gp&id=220

While California state Constitution (1849) predates the District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871, which incorporated the UNITED STATES.
This is significant because if one does not assert one's rights, then one has no rights. The US Public Education is one side of this story. The other side of this story is to take responsibility and to investigate for oneself via private study. This is missing in many people's daily practice because there are bills to "pay" and there are so many distractions to get hung up on.

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Now, what you have to find is a town which does NOT belong to one of the member states of the U.S.A.
You hit on an important aspect for which town to visit for state citizen rights. There are constitutionally recognized public officials, whose offices are located within Sacramento county: http://admin.cdn.sos.ca.gov/ca-roste...l-officers.pdf Essentially, all other STATE OF CALIFORNIA positions were created by the 1879 Constitution.

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Then you have to declare yourself a citizen of that town and officially renounce any citizenship with any member state, or any town of a member state of the U.S.A.
Declaring oneself as a state citizen which is not recognized by the US Franchise is challenging. I find also identifying what the specifics for not being a US citizen as critical as declaring my state citizenship. For instance the use of capitis diminutio maxima (http://thelawdictionary.org/capitis-diminutio/) is not accpetable and that I would not be privately responsible for such notices/statements/documents.

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This means you must become a citizen of Washington D.C. as this is the only town which does not belong to any of the member states. Because it does not belong to any member state there is also no representation in congress and Senate. People living in in D.C. can be taxed based on local rules and legislation. But citizen of D.C. can not be taxed aboard as they are not citizen of the federation.
I have heard from others state that recording my necessary documents at the national county recorder office is the place to go, which is either DC or Maryland. However, the District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 is in the heart of the beast. In my private studies Washington, District of Columbia is the incorporated area that accounts for all the the UNITED STATES and those born, living and working within these boundaries are the true US citizens. Other true US citizens include Federal and State employees and US Postal Service employees.

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(PS: I think the above post is total mind . Which means it could be mind rape. Luckily, this is no crime in any country on this planet. )
Replying to this post slowed down my process to explain it with some clarity, I hope. As a Californian, I'm open to more mind raping. Better a mind rape, than a bloody and broken arse.
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