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  #21  
Old 29.11.2016, 23:14
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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So is the value that one declares on Swiss property.

Generally, it's about 1/3 of the commercial value.
The guy from the Zurich tax office I spoke to on the phone said I should estimate the value I could sell the flat for...
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  #22  
Old 29.11.2016, 23:20
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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Perhaps. Or maybe if I do sell the place in a few years and get 3 times the value I have been declaring for years on my account they'll start to care.
The main and very important thing is to never falsify any third-party documents - that's a criminal offense here.

The punishment for anything else you could've done on your tax declaration is just money: all the unpaid taxes with interest plus some rather mild fine. In light cases and when they have full cooperation from you after discovering the problem, fine is only 33% of the unpaid taxes.
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  #23  
Old 29.11.2016, 23:20
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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The guy from the Zurich tax office I spoke to on the phone said I should estimate the value I could sell the flat for...
Well, I use the value my commune gave me, which in various places in Ticino is always around 1/3 of commercial value.

Maybe it depends on the canton.

Tom
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  #24  
Old 29.11.2016, 23:29
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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Well, I use the value my commune gave me, which in various places in Ticino is always around 1/3 of commercial value.
Same here in ZH
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Old 29.11.2016, 23:47
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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Same here in ZH
Ok guys, thanks for your opinions on the value to declare.

But what about the original question: why should I declare an eigenmietwert for the properties abroad? My tax guys (colfina, btw, highly recommended here) say that I should, unless a family member lives there. But I have been always told (including here), that that is not the case. This website https://www.ch.ch/en/tax-real-estate/ seems to agree: "If you are a homeowner in Switzerland, you have to pay income tax on what is known as its ‘rental value’"
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Old 30.11.2016, 00:14
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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I think in general you do not pay the tax directly on income from abroad. You have to declare it and it will influence the tax rate on your swiss income - the tax rate is determined by your global income. .
Playing around with the PrivateTax software, I cannot see the declared values of the properties (not the eigenmietwert) change the tax rate at the end. I have added a flat in Zurich for 500k CHF and one in Italy for 400 million and still got the same tax rate...
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  #27  
Old 30.11.2016, 00:34
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

It affects your wealth tax rate on assets in Switzerland.

https://www.steueramt.zh.ch/internet...nschaften.html
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Ist die Eigentumswohnung im Ausland im Vermögen aufzuführen?
Ja. Es sind alle Liegenschaften zu deklarieren, ohne Rücksicht darauf, ob sich das Objekt im Inland oder Ausland befindet. Das Steueramt wird aufgrund der Angaben eine Steuerausscheidung vornehmen. Der Vermögensanteil in der Schweiz (ohne Liegenschaft Ausland) wird zum Steuersatz des Gesamtvermögens (inkl. ausländischer Liegenschaft) besteuert
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Old 30.11.2016, 00:46
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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It affects your wealth tax rate on assets in Switzerland.

https://www.steueramt.zh.ch/internet...nschaften.html
What I see happening on the PrivateTax software when I change the value of the flat from 200K to 200M is a higher Steuersatz for the Vermogensteuer (which goes from tens to hundreds of CHF), which then makes the "Total einfache Steuer zum 100%" raise a bit and in return also resulting Kanton and Gemeindesteuern. But the Steuersatze for the incomes never change.
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  #29  
Old 30.11.2016, 00:50
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

That's because it's the Eigenmietwert (4.25% of value for appartments, don't forget to correct that when playing values) that matters for income tax.

In the end you pay both taxes, though, so you should pay attention to their total
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  #30  
Old 30.11.2016, 01:03
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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That's because it's the Eigenmietwert (4.25% of value for appartments, don't forget to correct that when playing values) that matters for income tax.

In the end you pay both taxes, though, so you should pay attention to their total
Right: the value of properties abroad influences the tax rate applied to (only) the assets in Switzerland, but not the tax rate applied to the incomes.

Still, I am not sure whether it's true that I have to declare an income (Ertrag) for an empty flat abroad.
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  #31  
Old 30.11.2016, 10:49
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

You'd have to declare it if it were a swiss property, except if it's unused because it needs renovations. If you're in doubt, just leave it empty, leave a note that it's unoccupied and let the tax office compute the income value for you. I think it's quite likely they'll use 4.25% of apartment's value (3.5% for houses) as that's what they do for domestic properties in ZH.
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  #32  
Old 30.11.2016, 10:53
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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If you're in doubt, just leave it empty, leave a note that it's unoccupied and let the tax office compute the income value for you.
I am indeed considering leaving it empty: they can still ask me or add it if they thing that's needed. Where would you leave the note though?
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  #33  
Old 30.11.2016, 10:58
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

There's a field #60 Bemerkungen on the main form for very short notes. For longer notes you can write anything on a separate sheet - "BM" in Private Tax.
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  #34  
Old 30.11.2016, 10:59
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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So is the value that one declares on Swiss property.

Generally, it's about 1/3 of the commercial value.

Tom
Swiss property is valued by the local council for Eingenmietwert. This is usually quite a conservative figure and below market value.

This valuation does not seem to change - we have been on the same level for 8 years. Prior to that in another property the valuation and thus Eigenmietwert remained the same for 10 years.

So yes, 1/3 is possible after a decade or two.

And to answer the original question Eigebmietwert is not applied to properties abroad - their (conservative) value is added to ones total world-wide wealth..
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  #35  
Old 30.11.2016, 11:04
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

Yes, the last reevaluation in ZH was done in 2009 and there's been quite a development in prices since then. There's still a 70% rule - if there was a recent sale, the property will be valued at 70% of the sale price, if that's higher than the official valuation.

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And to answer the original question Eigebmietwert is not applied to properties abroad - their (conservative) value is added to ones total world-wide wealth..
No first hand experience, but I think they do apply it. You don't get taxed for it directly of course, but it affects your tax rate on swiss income.
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Old 30.11.2016, 11:30
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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No first hand experience, but I think they do apply it. You don't get taxed for it directly of course, but it affects your tax rate on swiss income.
They certainly apply it in Neuchâtel and it made a difference to our tax rate but it may be different in other cantons.
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  #37  
Old 30.11.2016, 12:36
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

It's now 20 years since we sold our UK property, but in Zurich though we declared it on tax form there was Vermögensteuer but no Eigenmietwert....
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Old 30.11.2016, 21:47
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

Hi, since I'm new to the concept of Eigenmietwert (imputed rent?), I would like to ask you, how does it work?

I wanted to compare the two scenarios of buying a flat in Switzerland vs renting and investing. Let's say a family buys a flat for 1'000'000 with 350'000 equity, 650'000 mortgage. On which amount do they pay the Vermoegenssteuer? How does the Eigenmietwert affect the income tax? Let's say their annual income is 200'000.

This is how I imagine it:
1. OK so for a flat worth 1'000'000 you would pay 3% annually for rent, 30'000.
2. That makes the theoretical income 230'000.
3. Now I'm not sure:
a) will the income tax be paid on the total 230'000 or
b) will the 200'000 only be taxed with the tax rate for 230'000

Please tell me where I'm wrong.
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  #39  
Old 30.11.2016, 22:25
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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Hi, since I'm new to the concept of Eigenmietwert (imputed rent?), I would like to ask you, how does it work?

I wanted to compare the two scenarios of buying a flat in Switzerland vs renting and investing. Let's say a family buys a flat for 1'000'000 with 350'000 equity, 650'000 mortgage. On which amount do they pay the Vermoegenssteuer?
I believe your Vermoegen will then be 350K as the debt can be deducted.

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How does the Eigenmietwert affect the income tax? Let's say their annual income is 200'000.

This is how I imagine it:
1. OK so for a flat worth 1'000'000 you would pay 3% annually for rent, 30'000.
2. That makes the theoretical income 230'000.
3. Now I'm not sure:
a) will the income tax be paid on the total 230'000 or
b) will the 200'000 only be taxed with the tax rate for 230'000

Please tell me where I'm wrong.
AFAIU, it's a) for a property in CH, but you will be able to deduct mortgage interests from the 30K Eigenmietwert so your income will be less than 230K.
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Old 30.11.2016, 23:12
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Re: Eigenmietwert on (unused) property abroad?

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Let's say a family buys a flat for 1'000'000 with 350'000 equity, 650'000 mortgage. On which amount do they pay the Vermoegenssteuer?
Unless it's a new build, It'll be probably valued at 70% of sale price, so a 700k taxable asset. Minus 650k mortgage leaves 50k wealth to be taxed. If you take into consideration that you've poured 350k cash into it, the act of buying it will make you look 300k poorer from the tax perspective.

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How does the Eigenmietwert affect the income tax?
It's added to your taxable income as if you have earned that money. It increases your tax rate and you pay taxes on it. On the bright side, there are no other property taxes to pay here unlike most other countries. Also, 20% of Eigenmietwert can be always deducted as maintenance, no questions asked, more with receipts.

For an apartment in ZH, Eigenmietwert is calculated as 4.25% of taxable value of the property, but before the 70% sale price correction. This taxable value often is up to 3 times lower than market price as people have reported in this thread, especially for older buildings. So, for 1M sale price, old but maintained property, Eigenmietwert should be roughly on the order of ~ 15k. 20% of it you can deduct immediately, so your taxable income would increase only by ~ 12k. Assuming a single high earner in Zürich city, marginal tax rate is 39%, which means 4680 Fr in taxes to be paid for your property. Cheaper in the low tax suburbs. More expensive for new builds.

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theoretical income 230'000.
3. Now I'm not sure:
a) will the income tax be paid on the total 230'000 or
b) will the 200'000 only be taxed with the tax rate for 230'000
It's a), but remember that you can always deduct at least 20% for maintenance, so you'll actually pay taxes on 224k.

You can also always deduct mortgage interests in addition. It's not related to Eigenmietwert in any way. Effectively, this makes mortgage cheaper by your marginal tax rate.
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