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Old 16.01.2013, 12:42
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Swiss wine appreciation

I'm growing quite fond of Swiss wines, especially from Valias. And some decent ones from Ticino and Zurich too. I have a broad taste appreciation.

I've heard that they also grow wine in Graubundan, nauchatel and around lake Geneva. What are these regions wines like? Grapes, styles, personalities???

Please share your thoughts ;-)
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Old 16.01.2013, 12:45
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

Selection d'Ottobre (Ticino)
Vinatieri (Ticino)
Manfred Meier (Maienfeld)
Obrecht (Maienfeld)

All perfectly good wines - to my palate anyway.
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Old 20.01.2013, 18:28
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

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Selection d'Ottobre (Ticino)
Vinatieri (Ticino)
Manfred Meier (Maienfeld)
Obrecht (Maienfeld)

All perfectly good wines - to my palate anyway.
Are they producers? I think I've seen Meier.


Although I am not qualified in such matters, I think that Cornalin is a very interesting grape which is almost only grown in Valais (and a bit in Italy where it's virtually unheard of I've read). I've heard it's considered the best grape in Switzerland but it's rare and expensive because it's hard to grow.

I've never tried Cornalin from this producer (histoire D'Enfer) but I have had the luxury of one of their other products and they are really really good (and pricey!!!)
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Old 23.01.2013, 16:53
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

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I've heard it's considered the best grape in Switzerland but it's rare and expensive because it's hard to grow.
Cornalin tends to have good yield in one year and very poor yield in the next. It was the main red variety in the Valais before phylloxera almost destroyed it.

Personally I find Cornalin needs to be aged for a couple of years before it reaches its potential. For more on Swiss grapes and wine regions in English you can have a look at http://www.swiss-wine-online.com/
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Old 26.01.2013, 21:54
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

Sounds like you know your stuff

The only Cornalin I've been lucky enough to try so far was from Cave Deux Rives producer (http://www.cavedeuxrives.ch). They only sell it at small bottles (50 CL). 20 CHF direct, about 40 CHF in restaurants. We drank it alongside Fondue Chinoise and it was bloody excellent. At the lighter bodied end, but not as light as Pinot Noir, nor as acidic.



The label looks like this (variety text differs obviously)
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Old 27.01.2013, 00:29
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

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I'm growing quite fond of Swiss wines, especially from Valias. And some decent ones from Ticino and Zurich too. I have a broad taste appreciation.

I've heard that they also grow wine in Graubundan, nauchatel and around lake Geneva. What are these regions wines like? Grapes, styles, personalities???

Please share your thoughts ;-)
to take it from east to west, Canton by Canton
- Graubünden, just east of Sargans, north of Chur = superb wines, both red and white, even if the geographical area is limited
- St. Gallen = the area on the Rhein, just south of the Bodensee, has some excellent vineyards
- Schwyz = practically only one small wine-region (Leutschen) where a quite good white wine is produced
- Zürich has vineyards on the eastern side of the lake, a small one just above the railstation Enge, some in Höngg, and quite many in the northern part of the Canton
- Schaffhausen = excellent vineyards around Stein-am-Rhein and good ones in many areas of the main-part of the Canton. The main emphasis is on the Blauburgunder (red wine)
- Aargau = much underestimated Canton with excellent vineyards for both red and white wines
- Bern = excellent vineyards on the western side of the Bielersee (Lake of Biel) but astonishingly good ones also on the Thunersee (west of Interlaken)
- Neuchâtel (Neuenburg) = good wines, primarily white wines are produced around the Lake
- Geneva = the Canton produces excellent red Gamay wines but also other sorts
- Vaud (Waadtland) = clearly THE leading wine producer in Switzerland with a rich variety of both red and white wines. Splendid variety and splendid quality
- Valais/Wallis = primarily white wines (Fendant/Johannisberg) but also red wines (Dôle) ---- many wines of that Canton have a rather "strong" flavour, but the quality has improved over the past decades
- Ticino = specialising on the (red) Merlot wines. the vineyards are around both major lakes, north/northeast of the Lago Maggiore and between the Lago di Lugano and Chiasso
- Valtellina = not in Switzerland, BUT the VELTLINERWEINE are sold as "Swiss Wines" particularily in Graubünden
- Région Genevoise = not in Switzerland either but also those wines are imported dutyfree into Switzerland under some special bilateral treaties, in that case with France
- Elsass/Alsace = not in Switzerland either really, but due to the close relationship and connections "Elsässer-Weine" tend to be placed in wineshops among "Schweizer-Weine". The Elsass produces both white and red wines
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Old 27.01.2013, 02:56
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

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to take it from east to west, Canton by Canton......
I guess it's subjective.

You describe most Swiss wines as "excellent", which seems odd to me. If these are excellent, how do you describe the great classic wines from outside the country?

You skate over Ticino and Alsace. The best Ticino Merlot IMHO are among the best Swiss wines I've tasted so far. Alsace shouldn't be in a list of Swiss wines, but as it's there, good Alsace whites are far superior to the Swiss whites I've tasted. I've not had a bad Swiss white, but have found none so far that is particularly interesting.
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Old 27.01.2013, 07:19
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

Competing Switzerland with famous French appellations is a bit unfair, especially one do sunny considering it's northness. But Swiss wine is underrated. I think in part due to export volumes being too low to feature much in international wine press. Plus, unlike many other countries, the Swiss are appreciative of other countries' good wines.

For Swiss whites, petite arvine grape from valais is uniquely interesting and a good quality grape. it's very nice, and also 'interesting' unique taste in the same way that gewurztraminer has. It's kinda salty but in a good way.


Fendant (chasselas) is excellent with fondue or raclette, and I personally like Riesling-sylvaner from Zurich vineyards although I realize it's not a highly rated grape so subjective view here.
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Old 27.01.2013, 09:14
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

I am not an expert at all. Definately not one for theorizing - I like drinking the stuff. Although I think it is agreed that there are (at least from a technical point of view) better wines, it is mostly a question of personal taste. Sometimes evn a crappy wine goes down very well in good company:-).
So on a practical note - I have the good fortune of living on my brother-in law's wine producing farm in Vaud, close to Aubonne. If there is interest I will happily organize a normal farmer's working apero - nothing fancy - take a walk through the vinyard (varieties include Pinot Noir, Garranoir, Gamaret, Gewurztraminer, Chasslas), see what we do, open a couple of bottles and enjoy it with a bite of something:-)?
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Old 27.01.2013, 14:26
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

Wow! It's always tricky making commitments without dates, but if you do pull it off I'll do my damnedest to attend. I hope that there's enough interest to make it worthwhile at your end.


Btw, you are completely right about wine appreciation. The wine local to where you are at any given moment, in good company, is always the best wine.

Unless you are in England, in which case even gpod company won't save you.
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Old 27.01.2013, 17:14
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation



Even if it is only the two of us (and the wine of course) it will be ok:-) If there is interest I will suggest a date and then we take it from there... If it is just us then let me know when you are around for a taste.
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Old 28.01.2013, 01:21
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I guess it's subjective.

You describe most Swiss wines as "excellent", which seems odd to me. If these are excellent, how do you describe the great classic wines from outside the country?

You skate over Ticino and Alsace. The best Ticino Merlot IMHO are among the best Swiss wines I've tasted so far. Alsace shouldn't be in a list of Swiss wines, but as it's there, good Alsace whites are far superior to the Swiss whites I've tasted. I've not had a bad Swiss white, but have found none so far that is particularly interesting.
Alsace wines are superb, but the wines north of the Bodensee like the Blauburgunder Weissherbst or the Trollinger Blauburgunder from north of Stuttgart are to be mentioned. Merlot can be quite good but often is boring. I prefer some good Chianti or Montepulciano or Primitivo . Out of the French wines, my favourite is the Mont Ventoux some 30 kms north of Avignon. If looking to the Eastern Mediterranean, the red wines of Lebanon and Israel are clearly top class and if looking to the Maghreb, I have my preferrence with the Boulaouane and the Guerrouane from Morocco. In eastern Europe, let's not forget the many truly praiseworthy red wines produced in Hungary.

And YES, I used the term excellent repeatedly. Long gone are the sour wines very much around in Zürich and Schaffhausen into the 70ies. To give an example. Mum was from Schaffhausen but simply refused SH wines as late as in the 1980ies. We then, on a visit to Stein-am-Rhein in 1999 realised that the SH-wines no longer were sour and horrible but had become good to excellent. Quite similar in the Ticino. In the 1950ies, 60ies, 70ies, 80ies, the Ticino Merlots were acceptable with a heavy meal, but not convincing. Times in the meantime have changed, and now quite many Ticino wines have become good to excellent.

You may ask about France. There, the problem was and is different. They were on the top by international comparison but expensive. So that the French wine producers in recent decades had to bring down the production costs, in spite of rising salaries for the workers while retaining the quality.

Look to Latin America. I prefer the wines from Argentina clearly above those from Chile. And Argentinian Malbec is something of the best you can find. It is releatively expensive here in Switzerland but that most likely is due to the greed of the importers

You in Chinese and Indian restaurants can find Chinese and Indian wines which are surprisingly good. Those Indian wines, hardly surprisingly, tend to be as heavy as portwines, but can really be recommended. But in an Indian place in Zch-Enge I once had a discussion with other guests who asked me about the wine. I told them if anyone of you is here by car, continue now by tram and only restart driving in 8 hours as the stuff is very heavy indeed

Lousy wines ? You in the 1970ies could get some rather lousy but cheap Kalterer in the self-service place Air-Self at the airport, but nobody now will risk offering such stuff anymore

Egypt ? The red Omar Khayyam was good already years ago, but the white and the rose wines could be mistaken for vinegar, except that good vinegar is better. Then, Hosni Mubarak organised help from specialists from Bordeaux, and so the Egyptian wines became quite good

Tunisia and Algeria ? The Tunisian wines are good, but clearly subject to improvement, and very much the same applies to the Algerian wines. While the wines from the Oran / Mostaganem areas are good, the Moroccan ones, since Hassan II introduced the Appelation Controlée system are clearly above

Lebanon and Israel ? the wines of these two countries to me are supreme ---- and while neither chaps, unless being tortured, will admit it, the similarites make if obvious that there was and is some cooperation. If you can see that some Israeli army quarters for some months, of course just by chance, were right beside some of the best Lebanese vineyards you cannot help to jump to some of course totally unfounded conclusions

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Competing Switzerland with famous French appellations is a bit unfair, especially one do sunny considering it's northness. But Swiss wine is underrated. I think in part due to export volumes being too low to feature much in international wine press. Plus, unlike many other countries, the Swiss are appreciative of other countries' good wines.

For Swiss whites, petite arvine grape from valais is uniquely interesting and a good quality grape. it's very nice, and also 'interesting' unique taste in the same way that gewurztraminer has. It's kinda salty but in a good way.


Fendant (chasselas) is excellent with fondue or raclette, and I personally like Riesling-sylvaner from Zurich vineyards although I realize it's not a highly rated grape so subjective view here.
When you refer to Riesling-Sylvaner, you have to realize that while it is Riesling to 50% it is not "Sylvaner" at all, as those chaps in Freiburg im Breisgau delivered a wrong variety to Mr Müller from the Canton of Thurgau who then worked in Wädenswil. The wine outside Switzerland and even in parts of Schaffhausen therefore is named Müller-Thurgau

And the Fendant in Germany is named Gutedel and really widely available


http://www.ernestopauli.ch/wein/wein...er-thurgau.htm

To have it mentioned. There sometimes are surprises. I generally do not hold the Shiraz wine, in spite of its ancient tradition, too much in high regard. But right on Monday evening just had, in the Outback Stadelhofen, a glass of their housewine, a Shiraz from South Australia. And that wine simply is great. Proves that something can be achieved if people really try. Imagine that it is the least expensive red wine on the list. Amazing.

Last edited by Wollishofener; 29.01.2013 at 21:07.
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Old 29.01.2013, 19:32
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

I'd be happy contributing a bottle or two of my favorites to a tasting event.

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Alsace wines are superb, but the wines north of the Bodensee like the Blauburgunder Weissherbst or the Trollinger Blauburgunder from north of Stuttgart are to be mentioned. Merlot can be quite good but often is boring. I prefer some good Chianti or Montepulciano or Primitivo .
Switzerland produces some very good cool-climate wines, but it can't of course produce good hot-climate wines like primitivo for simple geographical reasons. But Pinot Noir, Gamay, Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc - they can certainly hold up in a comparative tasting. Another good source for the best wines Switzerland has to offer is http://www.mdvs.ch. It is however only available in German and French, but this is what the Swiss have themselves chosen as their "national team" of wines and winemakers.

I know a couple of these winemakers and could organize a tasting if there is interest.
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Old 29.01.2013, 19:34
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

Sorry - messed up the link. This should have been Memoir des Vins Suisses
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Old 29.01.2013, 21:15
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

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I'd be happy contributing a bottle or two of my favorites to a tasting event.



Switzerland produces some very good cool-climate wines, but it can't of course produce good hot-climate wines like primitivo for simple geographical reasons. But Pinot Noir, Gamay, Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc - they can certainly hold up in a comparative tasting. Another good source for the best wines Switzerland has to offer is http://www.mdvs.ch. It is however only available in German and French, but this is what the Swiss have themselves chosen as their "national team" of wines and winemakers.

I know a couple of these winemakers and could organize a tasting if there is interest.
Here we have it again. Wines to an extreme extent are subject to personal taste. I in regard to Chardonnay admire the Californian Chardonnay, but not the others. I rather dislike the Sauvignon Blanc, which in reality by objective comparison can be top. I love the Gamay varieties, as that is just my personal line. So that you can see that I am a wine lover and have some knowledge but am miles away from being a real expert or objective AND unlike my brother who could have participated successfully in a blind wine tasting I would not have any chance.
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Old 29.01.2013, 21:24
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

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Sorry - messed up the link. This should have been Memoir des Vins Suisses
While it, as taking place in Bellinzona should also be in Italian, it is self-evident that the Ticinesi have a sufficient command of German and /or French for the purpose. Not least as the market for the Ticino wines clearly is in the Luzern-Zug-Zürich-Schaffhausen-Basel area

And a wine tasting in Zug might be nice --- not least with a cheap "bed" for an overnight-stay from Saturday to Sunday
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Old 29.01.2013, 23:06
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

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If there is interest I will happily organize a normal farmer's working apero - nothing fancy - take a walk through the vinyard (varieties include Pinot Noir, Garranoir, Gamaret, Gewurztraminer, Chasslas), see what we do, open a couple of bottles and enjoy it with a bite of something:-)?
A farmer's working apero - sounds cool!
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Old 30.01.2013, 07:26
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

Thanks to this thread I've found out that "gamay" and "gamaret" are different unrelated grapes. I know I've had gamay a few times and really liked it, but I'm not sure I'd realize the difference in a French accent (tone deaf English speaker). So maybe I've drank gamaret too on the mistaken belief that it was gamay.

Swiss wine production is about 4-5 gamay to 1 gamaret so I guess it was gamay I tried.

Oh well, another grape to try. What a hard life we have here!
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Old 30.01.2013, 13:03
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

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To have it mentioned. There sometimes are surprises. I generally do not hold the Shiraz wine, in spite of its ancient tradition, too much in high regard. But right on Monday evening just had, in the Outback Stadelhofen, a glass of their housewine, a Shiraz from South Australia. And that wine simply is great. Proves that something can be achieved if people really try. Imagine that it is the least expensive red wine on the list. Amazing.
A bit off topic since not directly related to Swiss wine but this is what I've found recently. "New World" wines are getting better and better. Recently I've started enjoying Australia wines. Shiraz-Cabernet casts mostly. I was not familiar with these wines and picked up Penfolds since they are reasonably priced and came away very surprised - something to taste definitely
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Old 30.01.2013, 16:23
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Re: Swiss wine appreciation

Trivia: Shiraz is same grape as Syrah in France/Switzerland.

Valais' syrahs can be very very good.
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