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  #41  
Old 04.02.2015, 12:44
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Re: Halal meat in CH

Here is a copy of the post I made on the same subject in October 2012:

This link is from the site of an Halal organic butcher company in the UK:
Abraham natural produce. Providing the electric stun is calculated just right, the animal will be rendered unconscious for a short period, during which time the throat is cut. According to Islamic law, this is perfectly acceptable for Halal, and imho, an excellent compromise. There is absolutely nothing in the Qu'ran against this.

"The Arguments
Some of the reasoning used by voices against stunning is based around the following ayat of the Quran:
"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead animal, blood, the flesh of swine, and that over which has been invoked other than the name of Allah, that which has been killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a headlong fall or by being gored to death, that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal, unless you are able to slaughter (in due form), and that which is sacrificed on stone (altars)." (5:3)

The authorities argue that:

1) Research has shown that animals can and do die from stunning. If an animal dies because of stunning it is haram to eat. As we can't be 100% sure that the animal was alive at the time of slaughter we should then avoid all stunned meat.
We are partly in agreement. However, as we work in an abattoir we know from first hand experience that it is impossible for a lamb to die from a low voltage stun. In addition, if we follow the logic that because an animal may "possibly die" before slaughter we should not eat it, then why do we not also apply that logic to the person slaughtering the animal? They "possibly" did not follow the correct procedures for the slaughtering in terms of carrying it out properly and as a result we should consider the meat as haram. In fact the chances of this happening are higher than an animal dying from stunning.

2) The ayah says, "forbidden to you is the blood to consume." The halal authorities state that blood is dangerous if left inside the meat. Stunning can cause more blood to stay in the animal if the animal dies before being slaughtered.
Again, this is only applicable to an animal that dies before slaughter. It is not applicable to those that are still alive with hearts pumping when slaughtered meaning the blood runs free from the animal just as it would if it were alive. Furthemore, there is independent research to suggest the bleeding of stunned animals is equal to those on un-stunned.

3) The ayah says, "and an animal killed by a violent blow". This is compared to the act of stunning an animal and therefore invalidates it being halal.
Anyone who works in an abattoir will tell you that when you stun a lamb, there is absolutely no "blow" as this would make it impossible to stun it. The tongs must be carefully placed on the head otherwise they would not stay there.
"

The key is therefore for the electric stun to be strong enough to render the animal unconscious for just long enough, but not to kill - and as such is totally acceptable according to the Qu'ran - and in my view the best compromise possible.
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  #42  
Old 04.02.2015, 12:45
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Re: Halal meat in CH

Halal-labelled meat is sold in Switzerland. However, beware of fraudsters!

Halal butchery in Zürich sold cheeks of pigs as veal for years

At least for halal beef, remember that it should be ideally light in color and doesn't have too much blood clots in the veins.
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  #43  
Old 04.02.2015, 12:51
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Re: Halal meat in CH

For even more truths about meat go to https://www.vgt.at/
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  #44  
Old 04.02.2015, 13:02
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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2) The ayah says, "forbidden to you is the blood to consume." The halal authorities state that blood is dangerous if left inside the meat.
So, no pressed duck, then.

Tom
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  #45  
Old 04.02.2015, 13:12
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Re: Halal meat in CH

This thread is ridiculous...

OP:
- I don't eat meat.
- I saw a horrific news report on a Halal abattoir in Yorkshire where some of the workers were cruel to the animals
- I want to find out if Halal meat is available in Switzerland so I can warn my friends who do eat meat that they might be eating Halal meat which somehow might originate from a Halal abattoir, which because of what we saw in Yorkshire might be happening here too, and I just don't want my friends to be eating Halal meat just in case those crazy muslims might be doing the same %hiT to the poor animals.

The majority of the responses start going into detail of what makes Halal meat Halal or non Halal. It doesn't matter it's off topic, you are trying to answer a ridiculous question with a more ridiculous argument.

What next? Some tree hugging greenie films another video of cruelty in a non-Halal abattoir, the OP will create another thread asking us if the meat sold in Co-op and Migros is real meat and whether we should stop eating meat just because it might originate from the same abattoir where the video was filmed.

@OP: What's your point?

Animal cruelty can happen anywhere regardless of what custom / religion / tradition a slaughter house might adhere to. In the civilized world we live in people are completely detached from reality. Meat regardless of it's source comes from animals that get killed one way or another for their meat and other bi-products. It's your choice to consume those products or not. Agreed given the various ways of skinning a cat, we should probably use the one that's less likely to cause any undue pain to the animal. It's unnecessary. Should we stop eating meat because somebody out there deems it cruel? Absolutely not.

These kind of threads on the EF have been hacked to death (pardon the pun), now please allow me to tuck in to my steak without any guilt!

En guete!
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  #46  
Old 04.02.2015, 13:21
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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This thread is ridiculous...
Actually Halal meat is ridiculous.

It probably all started thousands of years ago as good 'Health and Safety 'practice.

i.e. Only eat meat freshly slaughtered and not rotting carcasses or meat that could be lying around diseased.

People came to this conclusion by realising, through trial and error over hundreds of years, that those people who ate meat that was definitely alive and kicking just before slaughter stayed alive a lot longer than those who ate diseased meat from dead animals.

Lots of sensible advice (at the time) became written into the religious books of the time and previously the message was sent by word of mouth.

Now we have the internet and doctors to tell us what is good to eat and what we shouldn't eat (and how much) but as we don't heed that advice, why the hell do we worry about ancient practices that we have no need of in a world with thermometers and refrigerators?
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  #47  
Old 04.02.2015, 13:29
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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Actually Halal meat is ridiculous.
....
why the hell do we worry about ancient practices that we have no need of in a world with thermometers and refrigerators?
Humans are by nature resistant to change... Some more than others... but this is a topic for another thread

Not everyone likes to change with the times, some people like things to stay the same they were, why? I don't know, I imagine it gives them a sense of belonging, it helps them make sense of an otherwise mysterious and crazy world. That's how their parents did things, that's how they like things to remain.
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  #48  
Old 04.02.2015, 19:43
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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If importing halal meat is so expensive, then why is the halal lamb in my local Turkish supermarket so cheap?


To Import Halal meat is NOT so expensive. If that Supermarket imports bigstyle, he will get favourable Prices. His stuff possibly is imported from Turkey or Egypt or Morocco
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  #49  
Old 04.02.2015, 19:57
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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From the Halal Food Authority:

Q 3. Does Halal Food Authority allow stunning of birds and animals?

A.Yes, however, one has to be reminded that HFA has always maintained "no stunning to kill".


1.Captive Bolt Stunning

proscribed

prohibited


2.Percussion Stunning

proscribed

prohibited
(although above procedures for cattle are allowed by some Ulema's in Africa & Germany)


3.Gas Stunning

proscribed

prohibited
(although Turkish Ulema's have approved this method for pre-slaughtering of chicken)


4.
Halal Food Authority allows controlled electric stun

5.There are two types of electric stunning


a.Stun to Kill


b. Stun to Immobilize only (and not to kill)


Halal Food Authority only allows and approves of “Stun to Immobilize” method. Itis used in the following two forms:


i.Water bath Stun for Poultry


ii.Electric Tong Stun for Ovine meat (end of quote).

Which is how halal meat is slaughtered in Switzerland, but not in France or Germany.


I have to say Sbrinz makes a good point about import tax. How can any butcher here in CH sell traditional (unstunned) meat imported from France or Germany at such prices as they do- when as Sbrinz reminded us, taxes on import as SO HIGH- something does not add up indeed. How can it be cheaper to buy halal meat in Lausanne than in Pontarlier??? Children count as part of the allowance, so a couple with 1 child can bring in 3kg of meat or chicken at a time- and then pay 17CHF per kilo if they want more.

As you can see here


http://xtares.admin.ch/tares/details...ate=04.02.2015


it is CHF 1.40 PER KILO or less, and I refer to the gross weight

Last edited by Wollishofener; 04.02.2015 at 21:52.
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  #50  
Old 04.02.2015, 20:04
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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Actually Halal meat is ridiculous.

It probably all started thousands of years ago as good 'Health and Safety 'practice.



Lots of sensible advice (at the time) became written into the religious books of the time and previously the message was sent by word of mouth.

why the hell do we worry about ancient practices that we have no need of in a world with thermometers and refrigerators?
Once something becomes part of a religion and religious practice, there is not a thing on earth that will change it. Sadly.
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  #51  
Old 04.02.2015, 20:40
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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As you can see here


http://xtares.admin.ch/tares/details...ate=04.02.2015


it is CHF 1.40 PER KILO or less
Yes, 17/kg is for private import, NOT commercial.

Tom
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  #52  
Old 04.02.2015, 20:42
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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Once something becomes part of a religion and religious practice, there is not a thing on earth that will change it. Sadly.
Mais au contraire, nobody is as inventive as religious people in worming around rules without actually breaking them. Haven't the clerics in some countries even found ways of permitting prostitution , sorry, time-limited marriage and of permitting the distilling of date juice for medicinal purposes.
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Old 04.02.2015, 20:47
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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Once something becomes part of a religion and religious practice, there is not a thing on earth that will change it. Sadly.
I was saying exactly the same to my sacrificial victim last night, just before I strangled him, stabbed him and threw him in the bog.
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  #54  
Old 04.02.2015, 20:51
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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Yes, 17/kg is for private import, NOT commercial.

Tom
Thanks for that. So if it is that cheap to import- why are people regularly caught at the border trying to import huge amounts of meat for the restaurant trade???
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Old 04.02.2015, 20:54
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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Thanks for that. So if it is that cheap to import- why are people regularly caught at the border trying to import huge amounts of meat for the restaurant trade???
Because some people are too cheap to pay taxes even when they're reasonable and when they can pass the costs on to the consumer ten-fold?
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Old 04.02.2015, 21:12
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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How can it be cheaper to buy halal meat in Lausanne than in Pontarlier??? Children count as part of the allowance, so a couple with 1 child can bring in 3kg of meat or chicken at a time- and then pay 17CHF per kilo if they want more.
[/FONT]
Grumpygrapefruit explained about the lower import costs for commercial use on the first page.

I didn't say it was cheaper to buy the meat in Lausanne than in Pontarlier.

At the time the limit was still 500g per person and 3.5kg poultry so a couple with two children could only bring a maximum of 2 kg red meat but loads if chicken. There's a limit to how much chicken you can eat and since they wanted more variety they decided it was easier to go to Lausanne once every couple of months to buy in bulk and fill their freezer. Makes sense really. They'd have had to go to Pontarlier much more often if they wanted to eat something other than chicken on a regular basis.
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  #57  
Old 04.02.2015, 21:16
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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Thanks for that. So if it is that cheap to import- why are people regularly caught at the border trying to import huge amounts of meat for the restaurant trade???
Because they're stupid.

And/or lazy.

Tom
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  #58  
Old 04.02.2015, 21:19
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Re: Halal meat in CH

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Because they're stupid.

And/or lazy.

Tom
And they think they won't get caught.
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  #59  
Old 04.02.2015, 21:32
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Re: Halal meat in CH

Certainly some high profile cases of people getting caught recently, with up to 100kg of meat- who were then charged with 17CHF per kilo plus large fines on top. So pretty daft, I'd say if the business could import for such a small charge.
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Old 04.02.2015, 21:38
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Re: Halal meat in CH

They probably need a permit, and were too cheap to pay for it.

Grumpy, how does it work?

Tom
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