If you pass neutral tap water through a water ionizer, it will filter the water, then separate the water into 'acid' and 'alkaline' ionized waters, that you can collect in two glasses.

So input water will have a pH of say 7.2, alkaline about 8.5, acid around 6.5.

If you measure the ORP's, you would find that the input tap water has an OPR of around +400, then alkaline water -300, the acid water +600 or so.

If you then combine the two glasses, you would again have neutral tap water, and the ORP would again be +400.

If you pass de-ionized, or distilled or reverse osmosis water through the ionizer, you will find that there is no change whatsoever to the output waters.

This is can all be easily demonstrated by anyone - it does not mater what academic arguments you make to the contrary.

Stephen makes the assertion that water ionizers attempt to split the water molecules into H+ and OH- ions, then he proceeds with lots of equations to demonstrate that his own assertion is wrong!

Japanese water ionization technology is not about splitting water molecules, they never claimed that - they are not fools.

In terms of benefit, well the water is clean, it tastes nice, it costs about half pence per litre, it seems to disappear and so you can easily drink the 2,5 litres water that you need. This is benefits enough - there may be others, but they are a plus.

Yes, Swiss water is amongst the best in the world, so make the most of it.

I don't know if you've read about the works of Dr Emoto? He was introduced to ionized micro-clustered water in the US, and was intrigued when told that water molecules exist in clusters. He wondered what shapes these molecules could be making, what mystery could be hidden from view. On returning to Japan, he thought of how to freeze and take photographs of these clusters, or 'Messages from Water' - he self-published these photos in a book as no publisher was interested.

His pictures were passed around, word spread, and there was interest from Switzerland. He was invited here present his work, which he did, and his book became a best seller. He has taken many beautiful pictures of Swiss water clusters.

Can you explain to me then what pray tell this water ionizer is doing to the H2O molecules? Cause I've looked on the internet and every site on water ionization I see says that you split the water into H and OH. Cause that's the beneficial part right? It's this alkaline water? Which has a basic pH? Which has a higher concentration of OH? (which is what makes something basic) How are these OH ions coming about if not from dissociating water to H and OH?

And aside from the sites I've seen by googling ionized water (which all boast ridiculous non-scientifically founded claims) I've seen no scientific proof for any of these statements. That includes a pubmed, scifinder, and web of science search (3 top scientific search engines)

And as far as water clusters go you freeze water and get all sorts of amazing shapes. Snow flakes for instance would be an example.

I'm not saying I don't think people should drink clean pure water I'm just saying that touting special water cures all the ailments is just unbelievable.

Placebo effect anyone?

It looks like it's a very technologically advanced process

I like the part about inorganic minerals.

Ain't that sad, a salesman who doesn't know the product.

Thanks, that's kind of what I was trying to get at

Swiss Tap water is very sweet and healthy guyz.

Yeah you're right. That's basically what I set up the thread to say. and it's turned into a kind of weird chemistry lesson. Every time I read a post I get momentarily transported back to my schooldays just long enough to start thinking..."sh*t...I've haven't done my homework!"

Slightly different perspective. Someone I work with told me about the some of the springs in Switzerland, how long it took the water to appear from them in relation to how long ago it fell as rain, and how, through analysis of it, they could trace it back to certain times in history. For example he was telling me that so far they hadn't seen the impact of the atomic bombs dropped in Japan, but expected that one day they would.

That's a hell of a long filtering process!

The biggest health risk involved in Zürich drink water is the same as that which exists in their fish. They come from the lake, where waste water is. Both contain high levels of "Anti-baby pillen" (medical contraception). There is a high rate of infertility among Zürich men. Tricky buisness, that.

Jessie, is this information about the fertility of Zurich men a product of your own personal investigations?

I understood that problem was to do with the girls on the pill going to the toilet.....especially after 10..30 at night

I've got to stay up early tomorrow and will have an exhausting day, so let me concentrate on a few important points in this complex matter:

• The pill isn't proven to be the cause of the fish gender disease, there are many other substances with hormonal effects on fishes and other organisms. Maybe it isn't even suspected.
• A 2004 test found 11 antibiotics and 6 of 10 x-ray contrast agents (not toxic but undesired) right behind Zürich's larger sewage plant Werdhölzli. They found no hormonally active agents. The number of traceable substances decreased further down the Limmat river.
• In groundwater used to produce tap water, so far the two above mentioned substances, herbicides and anticorrosives could be found.
• None of the four above mentioned substances, nor hormonally active substances, nor other "micro contaminations" were ever found in Zürich's tap water.

(Source in German)

Yum so complete with extra cow and goat pee and turd essence for flavour

The water in Zurich seems to be absolutely disgusting. So far sticking to OJ and wine as the beer is rubbish too (must be something about the water?)

Yorkshire tea is good for hardwater. Where do you get that in Zurich?

Dom

It does nothing to the H2O molecules. Tap water will contains ions, in addition to H2O. These ions form a very, very small percentage of the water but they are essential to life because without them water would not conduct electricity or energy.

OH- and H+ ions, each will be bonded with a mineral (which can be labelled as 'acid' mineral or 'alkaline' mineral depending on it's affinity to which ion, so Ca would be an alkaline mineral).

If you pass tap water through positive and negtive charged plates, these ions gravitate a it were towards one plate or the other depending on their charge. The ionization process also adds to the ORP of water - making the water at one end have a low ORP, and the other a higher ORP. It aso somehow reverts the water clusters to around six as you get when water is frozen.

This essentially is all that the water ionizer does, the process is very simple. It does not split the H2O molecules - as I said if you pass distilled or de-ionized water through it, you´ll get de-ionized water out, you will not get any acid or alkaline waters from it.

This can be easily measured. The reduced and oxidised waters have different properties. If, for example, you put a nail in reduced, tap and acid waters you will observe different rates of oxidation. The reduced water will prevent the oxidation of the nail - you'll not see any oxidation until it´s ORP goes below zero.

Websites say that it "breaks the covalent bond of the water" don't understand the process - that's salesmen for you, but I was referring to the Japanese and Korean scientists that have pioneered this technology.

You will not find scientific proof that good clean drinking water is good for you - it is not easy to pove something like that.

However, you will find medical case studies to suggest that alkaline water is. What are you searching for? Try Reduced Water, Electrically Reduced Water (ERW), Oxidised Water, Super Oxidised Water, Clustered Water. See these lists of alkaline and acid waters as a start, and you could do studies of your own.

I've written about the placebo effect here.

Water cures for all ailments may seem unbelievable, but Dr Batman reported that he cured over 3000 people of all sorts of ailments using tap water alone - read his book

That's interesting. I wonder how did they do the analysis?

BTW: There is a belief that water has memory, it remembers everything that happens to it. Homeopathy is based on this 'property' of water.

As I read it the author is using the term 'positive charged' to say that the water has a negative ORP, a higher number of available electrons, hence a high energy potential.

All chemical reactions involve Oxidation and Reduction. This is often a complex process, but can be energetically represented as a gain or loss of electrons. Some liquids have a lack of electrons, hence a tendency to oxidise or take an electron from something else. Electrons are observed to exist as regions of charge. Photons are released when electrons move from a state/region of high energy to a lower one. How do you know that this does not happen at the cellular level?

Look at it this way: If you drink a liquid containing oxidants (ie high ORP) they will end up stealing electrons (or energy) from you, and accelerate your aging process as your cells oxidize or rot as an apple does when you cut it on exposure to oxygen. The cells will lose the energy required for basic cellular functions including 'vital cell to cell communiction' as the author puts it.

If you drink anti-oxidants they will have the opposite effect.

I really don't have the time or the motivation to explain electron excitation and the respective modes of relaxation or why your cells emitting photons is a bad thing but I will mention the damaging effects of UV light to your DNA.

And also, your stomach is about pH 4 normally and pH 2 when in the business of digesting food. After entering your stomach this higher pH water is no longer high pH. Simple acid-base chemistry.

I wish i had your knowledge CG. Then i could give confident replies to some of the subjects you are obviously clued up on. As i don't have it and i only read peoples opinions on here, which in it's self is an education, i cant help wishing that you showed a little more humanity "should i say humbleness" in your views.
That way i could take in and seek further information on your point of the argument instead of getting my hackles up at your snooty tone. No matter what direction your education and views take you, the ability to share and convey knowledge is far more important than scoring points.

Just my two penneth worth.

...and maybe in actual fact he doesn't have a clue and is merely hoping that noone is sufficiently interested to look it up. He could be a scientist who knows what he is talking about, or indeed a scientist who doesn't. Or maybe he is not a scientist at all but someone with time on their hand to do internet searches for impressive sounding relevant snippets....

Believe very little of what you read on the internet.

dave

I know DaveA, i'm soooo gullible.

I'm sorry if my tone is snooty. I love talking science. I truly truly do. Explaining it to somebody who is truly interested in learning and having them get it is highly enjoyable for me. However, the forum is not necessarily the most convenient way for me to do it.

What chemgoddess is talking about is the basic principle of photon emission. I'll try to quote whatever I remember from my 12th grade Physics.

Whenever an electron absorbs energy - like the one contained in an incoming photon - it will leave its original orbit for a "higher one" - i.e. further away from the nucleus - with a higher potential energy. This state is not stable; at the earliest opportunity the electron will drop to a lower orbit and in the same process release the energy differential under photon form.

The point is that a human cell and its atomic components in their natural state will not emit photons. If they do, it's usually bad karma - there are very few types of radiation (i.e. energy) strong enough to cause a human to "glow in the dark".