The Wine Bore Thread

[Wollishofener]

	Quote:	Treverus
	Sure. I did in fact buy a box of real Zurich Räuschling (from the "Staatskellerei Zürich"), an ancient grape that used to be very common here. The wine was completely ok, but not exactly spectacular (and of course twice the price of an comparable Mosel Riesling). I used half of the box as gifts to Swiss friends, who already loved it for being from Zurich alone. So local wine seems to make a great gift here.

Räuschling only got revived in the late 1980ies. It had almost disappeared before. So that, even if not spectacular, it is an interesting speciality.

A really good one is available at Landolt at Brandschenkestrasse in the Enge between Selnaustrasse and Waffenplatz, and that is the "Schiiterberger Himmelsleiterli"
Schiterberger Himmelsleiterli
75 cl
2008
16.20

[Sparrowgirl]

I must remember you a tiny country you all forgot: Portugal...yes indeed we also do wine apart from Port and with very good quality.The most interesting thing? The numerous varieties of grape we have and which are unique. This you must know:

«In Portugal, as in Europe, are used numerous varieties of Vitis vinifera. The vast amount of native varieties (about 285 [1]) to produce a wide variety of wines with very different personalities. The Guide The Oxford Companion to Wine describes the country as a veritable "treasure of local varieties."

Some of Portuguese grape varieties most important are: Touriga Nacional, Baga, Castelao, Touriga Franca and Trincadeira (or yellow ink). Among the white varieties of Portuguese are: Alvarinho, Loureiro, Arinto, Encruzado, Bical, Fernão Pires, Moscatel and Malvasia Fina. Traditionally combine several white varieties.

Following the devastation caused by phylloxera in the late nineteenth century, began to be used as an American vine rootstock of Portuguese grape varieties are grafted. Despite having its own characteristics, the same grape variety can produce different wines depending on the conditions under which it is grown.

There has been a debate in Portugal for the use of varieties of foreign varieties. The debate continued since many foreign markets seem to prefer varieties that they already know as Cabernet Sauvignon for the Portuguese grape varieties, less known.»

Grape varieties for red wine:

• Alcoa (Tinta de Alcobaça)
• Alfrocheiro (Alfrocheiro Preto)
• Alicante Bouschet (Alicante Tinto, Tinta Fina, Tinta de Escrever)
• Alvarelhão (Brancelho, Brancelhão, Pirraúvo)
• Alvarelhão Ceitão
• Amaral (Azal Tinto)
• Amor-Não-Me-Deixes
• Amostrinha (Preto Martinho (Oeste))
• Aragonez (Tinta Roriz, Tinta de Santiago)
• Aramon
• Arjunção
• Baga (Tinta da Bairrada, Poeirinho, Baga de Louro)
• Barca (Tinta da Barca)
• Barreto (Barreto de Semente)
• *******o (*******inho)
• *******o Tinto (*******o Espanhol)
• Bonvedro (Monvedro Tinto, Monvedro de Sines)
• Borraçal (Bogalhal, Caínho Grosso, Olho de Sapo, Esfarrapa, Murraçal)
• Bragão (Tinta Bragão)
• Branjo
• Cabinda
• Caladoc
• Calrão
• Camarate (Castelão, Castelão Nacional, Moreto, Moreto de Soure, Negro Mouro)
• Campanário
• Carrega Burros (Esgana Raposas, Malvasias)
• Carrega Tinto
• Casculho
• Castelã
• Castelão (João de Santarém, Castelão Francês, Periquita)
• Castelino
• Cidadelhe (Tinta de Cidadelhe)

• Cidreiro
• Complexa
• Concieira
• Coração de Galo
• Cornifesto
• Corropio
• Corvo
• Deliciosa
• Doçal
• Doce
• Donzelinho Tinto
• Engomada (Tinta Engomada)
• Esgana Cão Tinto
• Espadeiro (Espadeiro Tinto, Padeiro, Cinza, Espadal)
• Espadeiro Mole
• Farinheira
• Fepiro (Alentejana)
• Ferral
• Galego
• Gonçalo Pires
• Gorda (Tinta Gorda)
• Gouveio Preto
• Graciosa (Tinta da Graciosa)
• Grangeal
• Grossa (Tinta Grossa)
• Jaen
• Lourela
• Lusitano
• Malandra (Tinta Malandra)
• Malvarisco
• Malvasia Preta (Moreto)
• Manteúdo Preto
• Mário Feld
• Marufo (Mourisco Tinto, Moroco, Uva de Rei, Olho de Rei)
• Melhorio
• Melra (Tinta Melra)
• Mindelo

• Molar
• Monvedro
• Moreto
• Moscargo (Portalegre)
• Moscatel Galego Tinto (Moscatel Tinto)
• Mourisco
• Mourisco de Semente
• Mourisco de Trevões
• Mulata
• Negra Mole
• Nevoeira
• Padeiro (Padeiro de Basto)
• Parreira Matias
• Patorra
• Pau Ferro
• Pedral
• Pero Pinhão
• Péxem
• Pical (Pical Polho, Pic Pul)
• Pilongo (Tourigo)
• Português Azul
• Preto Cardana
• Preto Martinho
• Primavera
• Rabo de Anho (Rabo de Ovelha)
• Rabo de Lobo
• Rabo de Ovelha Tinto (Rabo de Ovelha Tinto)
• Ramisco
• Ramisco Tinto
• Ricoca (Tinta Ricoca)
• Rodo (Tinta Rodo)
• Roseira (Tinta Roseira)
• Rufete (Tinta Pinheira, Penamacor)
• Saborinho
• Santareno (Santarém)
• São Saul
• Sevilhão
• Sousão (Sousão Forte, Sousão de Comer, Sousão Vermelho)

• Tinta
• Tinta Aguiar
• Tinta Aurélio
• Tinta Barroca
• Tinta *******inha
• Tinta Caiada (Monvedro)
• Tinta Carvalha
• Tinta Fontes (Tinta Miuda de Fontes)
• Tinta Francisca
• Tinta Lameira
• Tinta Lisboa
• Tinta Martins
• Tinta Mesquita
• Tinta Miúda
• Tinta Negra (Negra Mole)
• Tinta Penajóia (Tinta Roriz de Penajóia)
• Tinta Pereira
• Tinta Pomar (Tinta Mole)
• Tinta Porto Santo
• Tinta Tabuaço
• Tintem
• Tintinha
• Tinto Cão (Padeiro, Tinto Mata)
• Tinto Pegões
• Tinto Sem Nome
• Touriga Fêmea (Touriga Brasileira)
• Touriga Franca (Touriga Francesa)
• Touriga Nacional (Preto Mortágua, Azal Espanhol)
• Transâncora
• Trincadeira (Tinta Amarela, Crato Preto, Folha de Abóbora, Mortágua, Espadeiro, Espadeiro, Torneiro, Negreda, Castelão)
• Triunfo
• Valbom
• Valdosa (Tinta Valdosa)
• Varejoa
• Verdelho Tinto (Verdelho, Verdelho Feijão, Feijão, Mindeço)
• Verdial Tinto
• Vinhão (Tinto, Tinto Nacional, Negrão, Pé de Perdiz, Espadeiro Preto, Tinta Antiga, Tinta de Parada, Sousão)
• Xara
• Zé do Telheiro

Grape varieties for white wines:

• Alicante Branco (Uva Rei, Boal de Alicante, Boal Cachudo (Douro) Branco Conceição, Pérola)
• Almafra
• Almenhaca
• Antão Vaz
• Alvadurão
• Alvarinho (Galego, Galeguinho)
• Alvar (Alvar Branco)
• Alvarelhão Branco
• Arinto (Pedernã, Pé de Perdiz Branco, Chapeludo, Cerceal, Azal Espanhol, Azal Galego, Branco Espanhol)
• Arinto do Interior (Arinto do Douro, Arinto de Trás-os-Montes)
• Avesso
• Azal (Gadelhudo, Carvalhal, Pinheira)
• Babosa (Malvasia Babosa)
• Barcelo
• *******o Branco
• Batoca (Alvaraça, Alvaroça, Sedouro)
• Beba
• Bical (Borrado das Moscas, Arinto (Alcobaça), Fernão Pires do Galego, Pedro)
• Boal Barreiro
• Boal Branco
• Boal Espinho (Batalhinha)
• Branca de Anadia
• Branco Desconhecido
• Branco Especial
• Branco Gouvães
• Branco Guimarães
• Branco João (Branco Sr. João)
• Branda (D. Branca, Dona Branca)
• Budelho
• Caínho
• Caracol
• Caramela
• Carão de Moça

• Carrasquenho (Boal Carrasquenho)
• Carrega Branco (Malvasia Polta, Barranquesa)
• Cascal
• Castália
• Castelão Branco
• Castelo Branco
• Casteloa
• Cerceal Branco
• Cercial
• Côdega de Larinho
• Corval
• Crato Espanhol
• Dedo de Dama
• Diagalves (Formosa, Carnal)
• Dona Branca
• Dona Joaquina
• Donzelinho Branco
• Dorinto (Arinto Branco)
• Encruzado
• Esganinho
• Esganoso (Esganoso de Lima, Esganinho, Esgana Cão Furnicoso)
• Estreito Macio (Estreito, Rabigato)
• Fernão Pires (Maria Gomes)
• Folgasão (Terrantez)
• Folha de Figueira
• Fonte Cal
• Galego Dourado
• Generosa
• Gigante (Branco Gigante)
• Godelho
• Gouveio (Verdelho)
• Gouveio Estimado
• Gouveio Real
• Granho

• Lameiro (Branco Lameiro, Lameirinho, Luzidio)
• Larião
• Leira
• Lilás (Alvarinho Lilás)
• Loureiro
• Luzidio
• Malvasia
• Malvasia Bianca
• Malvasia Branca
• Malvasia Branca de S. Jorge
• Malvasia Cândida
• Malvasia Fina/Boal (Boal Branco, Arinto-do -Dão, Assario Branco, Arinto Galego, Boal Cachudo)
• Malvasia Parda
• Malvasia Rei (Seminário, Assario, Listrão, Pérola, Moscatel Carré, Grés, Olho de Lebre)
• Malvasia Romana (alvasia Cândida Romana, Malvasia Cândida Branca)
• Malvia (Malvasia de Setúbal)
• Malvoeira (Malvasia de Oeiras)
• Manteúdo (Manteúdo B., Vale Grosso, Manteúdo Branco)
• Marquinhas
• Molinha
• Moscatel Galego Branco (Moscatel, Moscatel de Bago Miúdo)
• Moscatel Graúdo (Moscatel de Setúbal)
• Moscatel Nunes (Moscatel Branco)
• Mourisco Branco
• Naia
• Pé Comprido
• Perigo
• Perrum
• Pinheira Branca
• Pintosa (Branco Escola, Branco de Asa, Azal de São Tirso)
• Praça
• Promissão

• Rabigato
• Rabigato Franco (Rabigato Francês, Rabigato Branco)
• Rabigato Moreno
• Rabo de Ovelha (Medock, Rabigato, Rabo de Gato, Rabisgato, Rabo de Carneiro)
• Ratinho (Boal Ratinho, Branco sem Nome, Malvasia de Tomar, Boal Doce)
• Roupeiro Branco (Roupeiro)
• Sabro
• Samarrinho
• Santoal (Boal de Santarém)
• São Mamede
• Sarigo
• Seara Nova
• Semilão
• Sercial (Esgana Cão, Esganoso, Sercial)
• Sercialinho
• Síria (Roupeiro, Crato Branco, Alva, Malvasia, Posto Branco, Côdega, Alvadurão do Dão)
• Tália (Branquinha, Douradinha (Vinho Verde), Pêra de Bode, Douradinha, Ugni Blanc, Esgana Rapazes, *Espadeiro Branco; Malvasia Fina, Trebiano, Alfrocheiro Branco)
• Tamarez (Arinto Gordo, Boal Prior, Trincadeira do Douro)
• Terrantez
• Terrantez da Terceira
• Terrantez do Pico
• Touriga Branca
• Trajadura (Trincadeira, Mourisco)
• Trincadeira Branca
• Trincadeira das Pratas (Tamarez)
• Uva Cão (Cachorrinho)
• Uva Cavaco
• Uva Salsa
• Valente (Branco Valente)
• Valveirinho
• Vencedor (Boal Vencedor)
• Verdelho (Verdelho Branco, Verdelho dos Açores)
• Verdial Branco
• Viosinho
• Vital (Boal Bonifácio, Malvasia Corada)

Hoping you are not all sleeping by now I just needed to add the different types of portuguese wine you can enjoy:

• Vinho Verde ( green wine) is produced from grapes which do not reach great doses of sugar. Therefore, Vinho Verde does not require an aging process. Vinho Verde wines are now largely exported, and are the most exported Portuguese wines after the Port Wine. The most popular variety in Portugal and abroad are the white wines, but there are also red and more rarely rosé wines. A notable variety of Vinho Verde is Vinho Alvarinho which is a special variety of white Vinho Verde, the production of Alvarinho is restricted by EU law to a small sub-region of Monção, in the northern part of the Minho region in Portugal. It has more alcohol (11.5 to 13%) than the other varieties (8 to 11.5%).

• Douro wine (Vinho do Douro) originates from the same region as port wines. In the past they were considered to be a bitter tasting wine. In order to prevent spoilage during the voyage from Portugal to England, the English decided to add a Portuguese wine brandy known as aguardente. The first documented commercial transactions appearing in registries of export date as far back as 1679. Today's Douro table wines are enjoying growing favor in the world, maintaining many traits that are reminiscent of a port wine.

• Dão wine is from the Região Demarcada do Dão, a region demarcated in 1908, but already in 1390 there were taken some measures to protect this wine. The Dão Wine is produced in a mountainous region with temperate climate, in the area of the Mondego and Dão Rivers in the north region of central Portugal. These mountains protect the castas from maritime and continental influences.

• Bairrada wine, is produced in the Região Demarcada da Bairrada. The name "Bairrada" is from "barros" (clay) and due to the clayey soils of the region. Although the region was classified in 1979, it is an ancient vineyard region. The vines grow exposed to the sun, favouring the further maturity of the grapes. The Baga casta is intensely used in the wines of the region. The Bairrada region produces table, white and red wines. Yet, it is notable for its sparkling natural wine: the "Conde de Cantanhede" and "Marquês de Marialva" are the official brands for this wine.

• Alentejo wine is produced from grapes planted in vast vineyards extending over rolling plains under the sun which shines on the grapes and ripens them for the production.

• Colares wine is type of wine produced in sandy soils outside Lisbon between the foothills of Sintra and Roca Cape. Because of Lisbon's urban sprawl, the lands available for vineyards became so small, that the demands has always been higher than the production, making it one of the most expensive Portuguese wines.

Cheers

[baboon]

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	the Primitivo is a totally different product then the Zinfandel. I do NOT like Zinfandel but love Primitivo. And strongly suppose that Zinfandel lovers will not like Primitivo

Well according to this and any number of other sources they are genetically identical and the Californian grape originated from Primitivo. The terroir in California accounts for the different taste compared to Italian Primitivo.

I still wonder how the producers of most Zinfandel and many Primitivo wines manage to get the cats to sit over the bottle.

[baboon]

	Quote:	Sparrowgirl
	..........

Yes Port is excellent and some of the Dueros are coming up but we really didn't need a listing of every single Portuguese grape variety. Sort of grape porn really.

[Wollishofener]

	Quote:	baboon
	Well according to this and any number of other sources they are genetically identical and the Californian grape originated from Primitivo. The terroir in California accounts for the different taste compared to Italian Primitivo. I still wonder how the producers of most Zinfandel and many Primitivo wines manage to get the cats to sit over the bottle.

--

Grapes and wines are a different thing. And while I might agree with you about the Zinfandel (personal and not objective position in this ! ) I DISagree in regard to most Primitivo.

At the other hand, and I got this explained by Swiss, Australian and Californian specialists, the reason why Californian Chardonnay is above the other Chardonnay is completely based on the procedures of developing the wines.

------------------------------------------------------

	Quote:	baboon
	Yes Port is excellent and some of the Dueros are coming up but we really didn't need a listing of every single Portuguese grape variety. Sort of grape porn really.

Port in Switzerland is "Porto" and is NOT regarded as wine, but together with Sherry (Jerez) and "Malaga" and Marsala
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsala_DOC
as part of a different category of beverages.

[baboon]

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	Grapes and wines are a different thing.

Which is why I specifically mentioned the terrior. Also why I used "many" and "most". But there really are some sh 1t Primitivos out there as well.

[baboon]

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	the reason why Californian Chardonnay is above the other Chardonnay is completely based on the procedures of developing the wines.

As always you'll find good and bad. An excellent Chardonnay I know is Jane Hunters from New Zealand. Rutz unfiltered from California is also pretty good. But go for the mass stuff from California and you'll at best get something indifferent.

[baboon]

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	Port in Switzerland is "Porto" and is NOT regarded as wine, but together with Sherry (Jerez) and "Malaga" and Marsala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsala_DOC as part of a different category of beverages.

Port wine (also known as Vinho do Porto, Porto, and often simply Port) is a Portuguese style of fortified wine originating from the Douro Valley in the northern provinces of Portugal.[1] It is typically a sweet, red wine, often served as a dessert wine, and comes in dry, semi-dry, and white varieties.

OK technically a fortified wine, regarded as a wine by...well almost anyone. And surely "Port" on an ENGLISH forum

[Wollishofener]

	Quote:	baboon
	Port wine (also known as Vinho do Porto, Porto, and often simply Port) is a Portuguese style of fortified wine originating from the Douro Valley in the northern provinces of Portugal.[1] It is typically a sweet, red wine, often served as a dessert wine, and comes in dry, semi-dry, and white varieties. OK technically a fortified wine, regarded as a wine by...well almost anyone. And surely "Port" on an ENGLISH forum

On an EnglishForum yes, but it is englishforum.CH ! and so it is Port.CH !

---------------------------------------

[jemma]

For anyone who fancies a little bit of wine tasting this weekend or next week Expovina Primavera is on this week until the 25th March at Oerlikon.

More details here.....

[walterguariento]

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	But some interesting wine producers need to be mentioned... - Lebanon: mainly red wines of superb quality ...

I'll second that... Chateau Musar's Cabernet Franc is one the best red I've ever had...

[grumpygrapefruit]

Any one with much experience of English wine? I was told by a Swiss wine dealer last month that we have over 600 wineries in England. I need to get tasting!

[walterguariento]

	Quote:	grumpygrapefruit
	Any one with much experience of English wine? I was told by a Swiss wine dealer last month that we have over 600 wineries in England. I need to get tasting!

Chapel Down sparkling Pinot... very little to envy to the better known (and widely overpriced) French Champagne houses

	Quote:	grumpygrapefruit
	Any one with much experience of English wine? I was told by a Swiss wine dealer last month that we have over 600 wineries in England. I need to get tasting!

Manor had some English sparkling wine over Christmas as part of their English theme. I bought a few bottles out of curiosity. Ridgeview it was called and it was outstanding - and for my taste better than the non vintage run of the mill French stuff in the CHF 40 - CHF 60 bracket. I can't bring myself to pay up for Champagne anymore. The best Prosecco I've found is Col Del Sol from Denner.

[grumpygrapefruit]

	Quote:	walterguariento
	Chapel Down sparkling Pinot... very little to envy to the better known (and widely overpriced) French Champagne houses

	Quote:	Nev
	Manor had some English sparkling wine over Christmas as part of their English theme. I bought a few bottles out of curiosity. Ridgeview it was called and it was outstanding - and for my taste better than the non vintage run of the mill French stuff in the CHF 40 - CHF 60 bracket. I can't bring myself to pay up for Champagne anymore. The best Prosecco I've found is Col Del Sol from Denner.

Thanks chaps. I've been asked many times about serving or supplying English wine with our cheese, now I know it may be worth researching a bit more.... . I'll be Kent next week!

[walterguariento]

	Quote:	grumpygrapefruit
	Thanks chaps. I've been asked many times about serving or supplying English wine with our cheese, now I know it may be worth researching a bit more.... . I'll be Kent next week!

my memory fails me here, but there used to be a fantastic English chardonnay that I had a while ago with some yummy Guernsey goat cheese and Somerset brie... light green bottle, name something like Bishop... of Abbott...

anyone can jog my memory?

[möpp]

To go with the Expovina mentioned earlier, the Züritipp (supplement to the Tages Anzeiger) on Thursday had a section on wine bars (the good, the bad and the ugly) in Zurich:

http://www.zueritipp.ch/story/gastro...er-weinlokale/

[Treverus]

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	But some interesting wine producers need to be mentioned : - Turkey: both red and white wines of remarkable quality - Lebanon: mainly red wines of superb quality - Israel: mainly red wines of superb quality - Egypt: nice table-wines, red/rosé/white.... enjoyable - Tunisia+Algeria: good mainly red wines - Morocco: mainly red wines of superb quality - Malta: small quantities of excellent red wines - - Georgia: excellent red + white wines - Bulgaria: excellent red + white wines - Hungary: a leading producer of superb wines - India + China: producing astonishingly remarkable red wines - - Jersey, C.I. : one interesting vineyards with remarkable wines and last but not least, the England, U.K., slowly emerging with really enjoyable nice wines !

I would like to add a certain country that nobody mentioned: Greece!

I know they have a track record of producing low quality mass wines for tourists, but I had a very nice one lately and it looks like a bit more of a decade ago, many Greek producers recognized that quality is a better way than mass production... there is quite something to try out (and I will not make a long list of funny grape names here).

[Treverus]

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	Räuschling only got revived in the late 1980ies. It had almost disappeared before. So that, even if not spectacular, it is an interesting speciality. A really good one is available at Landolt at Brandschenkestrasse in the Enge between Selnaustrasse and Waffenplatz, and that is the "Schiiterberger Himmelsleiterli" Schiterberger Himmelsleiterli 75 cl 2008 16.20

OK, I guess I have to be more precise: I had a white Räuschling, also known as "Zürirebe"...

[PlantHead]

Request:

I can see people already recommending wines...which is exactly what I hoped would happen.
Can we include in the recommendation:
Name of wine (in bold so it's easy to see)
Where to buy
Price
Red/White
and what it was like.

I'll try and keep the first post upto date and add all the recommendations in, then as people try the recommendations and comment on them I can add those in too.

Cheers.