The Wine Bore Thread

[PlantHead]

I used to know absolutely nothing about wine, it came out of a bottle and I got drunk when I imbibed it.
However, recently I've been trying to educate myself and without sounding like too much of a knobber, gain some sort of appreciation for wines.
The first thing I learnt is that the taste of the wine varies depending on the grape it's made from, sounds obvious but I had no idea. Also not all producers (I'm looking at the French monkeys here) put the grape variety on their bottles, which adds to the confusion.

There are a lot of grape types but here are the one's I know about, very few are white wine grapes, I don't drink it alot or know much about it.
I've stuck down what they apparently taste like but take it with a pinch of salt. I certainly don't taste chocolate in Merlot.

Cabernet Sauvignon - Bordeaux makes this grape famous , also called Claret by the English. Bordeaux is also blended with merlot and some other grapes. This is the Daddy of grapes and the one people bang on about as the best. People invest in Bordeaux wines like they invest in stocks and shares.
Personally I am not a fan I find it dry, thin and painful to drink.
As far as I can tell most countries who make wine, grow Cabernet Sauvignon.
Key flavour: Blackcurrants.

Pinot Noir - also called Blauburgunder in Switzerland, and Burgundy in English because it comes from that area of France. It is one of the most difficult grapes to grow (so I've been told) and only a few countries successfully grow it. New Zealand makes some excellent Pinot Noir's as does the US (mainly from around Oregon). New world (ie not France) Pinot Noir's are fruitier and I find them much better than Burgundy. They have reputation for either being God awful or wonderful with very little in between.
Key Flavours: Summer berry fruits

Merlot - Mixed with Cabernet Sauvignon to make Bordeaux, most Merlots come from France and are usually blended with other grapes, typically Malbec or Cab Sauv. Ticino makes good Merlots. I am told that it is a better wine to drink than Cabernet Sauvignon but to me they taste fairly similar, although I do prefer it. In the USA Merlot seems to be the default Red Wine and has a reputation as easy to drink.
Key flavours: Chocolate, fruitcake.

Syrah/Shiraz - Comes from the Rhone in France and is used in wine blends such as those from Châteauneuf-du-Pape (Delboy) Also famous as Shiraz from Australia. It has high tannin levels and is good for using to cook meat with, also because of these high tannin levels it is often better to let it age. I find it to be very full bodied.
Key Flavours: Black fruits & black pepper.

Zinfandel -Grown almost exclusively in Californina and I get the impression not very highly thought of in Europe. I have had it described to me as tasting faintly of cats wee, not my description. I generally find it to be easy drinking wine that's not very "complex" although it is currently very trendy.
Also grown in Italy as Primitivo [Mirfiield)
Key Flavours: red and black fruits, black pepper

Sangiovese - This is grown in Italy and is famous for being Chianti. It seems that this grape grows really well and that makes it prone to over production and therefore a lot of rubbish tasting wines. I find it pretty acidic and fairly light (good in summer) to drink. It basically seems to be a bit of a workhorse because so much of it can be grown it gets used for table wine as much as it does for premium wines
Key Flavours: Black Cherries

Malbec - Commonly used as a blend with Bordeaux, it makes a dark inky red wine. Currently Argentina is having alot of success growing this grape and for this reason it is becoming much more popular.
Key Flavours: intense summer fruits, spice

Countries. Basically what is good from where.

France : Bordeaux, Burgundy and of course Champagne
Germany: Forget Liebfraumilch and Blue Nun and get Riesling, they are sweeter from around the Mosel Valley and dryer from the Rheingau. Not my grape but my misses likes it.
Austria: Grüner Veltliner is a white wine grape and goes well with food. I like it a lot, it's pretty light and easy drinking.
USA - A bit like France they produce almost everything. California is particularly good for Cabernet Sauvignon, Oregon has a reputation for Pinot Noir and you can get Chardonnay and Zinfandel as well from a variety of areas.
Italy: Famous for Chianti, Valpolacelli and Pinot Grigio
New Zealand: Sauvingon Blanc is the biggy here, also Marlbrough and Otago make some great Pinot Noirs.
Australia: Forgot to put it in, got confused with Austria. Chardonnay is the main wine Australia is famous for, form the Yara hills and around Adelaide. It's also a good choice for Sauvingnon Blanc and I've had a nice Australian Pinot Noir although I don't think they make a lot.

Cork or Screw top.
Basically cork is traditional and has a proven track record of ageing wines, screw tops don't and are seen as being used with cheapy wines only. It's basically not true anymore. A lot of new world wine producers make good wines with screw tops.

I have been discovering that actually you don't need to spend mega money to get great wine, although I do seem to find Switzerland a bit of a black hole, compared to the UK.
So far I've been reading my way through The Wine Spectator every month, which is great for all ranges of wine prices but unfortunately almost all the wines they recommend seem to be impossible to find in Switzerland.
I'm sure there are people out there that have far more knowledge than me and can recommend wines as well as where to find out more information.

Wine terms


1. Dry
All wines are dry, it's the default taste. (Apart from some dessert wines and some whites) It basically means that there is a high ratio of acid to sugar. Dry does not mean that there is no fruitiness as most flavour profiles have more to do with smell than taste.

2. Body
How heavy a wine is on your palate. Light wines are typically described as summer wines whilst heavier wines are often thought of as more serious affairs. Imagine drinking water and then think of drinking milk. The milk is thicker, velvetier and therefore heavier than the water, and would be described as bodied. Generally heavier wines contain more alcohol.

3. Nose
What a wine smells like. Smell and taste are closely linked, the better the smell of a wine the more likely you are to enjoy it and therefore many people describe the smell as the defining characteristic of a wine. I find that many wines which smell nice aren't actually to my taste, I guess I have an untrained nose.

4. Tannin
Eat a walnut and notice how it makes the back and side of your tongue feel dry, this is tannin. It is a textural feeling on your tongue and not a flavour. Wines get tannins from the skin and stem of the grape and for this reason red wines are more tannic than white wines. Tannin is supposed to add body and structure to a wine allowing it to age. I find tannin and acidity very similar but I have been told that an acid tastes makes your mouth water with a feeling of dryness whilst tannin does not.


How to make a recommendation
Name of wine (in bold so it's easy to see)
Where to buy
Price
Red/White
and what it was like.


Recommendations
You can get it from RIO's getrankemarkt.
Triple A - 25CHF
Red, very full bodied and made from a variety of grapes. I wouldn't call it classy but it's a great wine to drink with strong flavoured food or on it's own.

Class thread. You should start a blog on this, I am in the same position as you (except I evidently know less) and would be fascinated.

[Assassin]

Appreciate the well informed and well written piece. You lost me after the first line though, I'm still fighting the freakin' corkscrew....

[Suzagna]

You forgot Spain !!

[Tom73]

In my opinion you can not classify wine in its flavors, you just like it or not so much and i think you will not want to serve a gewürztraminer with a roast anyway.
I wish there are all winebottles made with a screw top or plastic cork preventing the hassel with wrecked winebottles because of a rotting cork.

[walterguariento]

you'll annoy a few OZies to not mentioning OZ...

[basher]

That's a great thread! Especially for wine duffers like me . . . . . didn't see any mention of 'Black Tower' in there though.

A mate of mine brought a bottle (the legendary bottle) to a dinner party and he took so much stick about it - I felt sorry for him . . so much so that I drank the lot . . ha ha

Actually I would be interested in some sort of wine tasting/appreciation.

[walterguariento]

where's Portsmouth68 when you need him?

[mirfield]

	Quote:	PlantHead
	Zinfandel -Grown almost exclusively in Californina and I get the impression not very highly thought of in Europe.

I think it's also grown in Italy as Primitivo.

[imogen]

Mmmmm wine! I adore Malbec - it's such a decent drinkable wine. I also have a passion for a really deep, ballsy Bordeaux too (the wine, obviously, although a deep ballsy man from Bordeaux might be appreciated!)

[Carlos R]

When you really want to step up a level, start matching the wine to the food. It will make you appreciate the different wines.

I'll be the first to admit that I ain't much of a connoisseur when it comes to wine , but I've had the opportunity to have meals in restaurants where the wine was specifically matched with each course (or was it the other way around?).

The difference is absolutely amazing. I've only had two successes in that department at home. A freak chance where I served up a Rioja with a curry - wow! Like drinking nectar - and a planned one where I served up a local Basel wine from a specific grape that is meant to go well with raclette. Wine was rough on its own, but really good with the raclette.

Happy drinking!

[Gastro Gnome]

One resource I can highly recommend is Jancis Robinson's website. You have to buy a subscription for most of it, but for that you get access to an online version of the Oxford Companion and Wine Atlas.

http://www.jancisrobinson.com/

I think it's definitely true that you don't have to spend a fortune on wine and some bottles here can be good value compared to the UK.

For Swiss wine in Zürich, I've been enjoying the small selection from Terroir.

My biggest disappointment? The wine list at the Dolder . . . a boring, expensive monstrosity.

Good bars to enjoy wine in Zürich? Caduff's wine loft (the best bit is the cellar). Also La Salle has a good sommelier with some interesting choices.

[baboon]

One reason French producers often don't put the grape variety on the bottle is that most French wines are made from a blend of varieties - single grape wines are relatively rare there (and often rubbish to boot). Yes, even Bordeaux. BTW CS is particularly the Medoc grape, other sub-regions may use a different dominent sort.

Rhone carries blending the the extreme, from memory they have 10 to 15 different grape sorts in their appellation.

I've noticed that new world producers (or at least the better ones) are tending to move away from single grape wines and are producing more blends (typically one dominant sort and 3 to 5 smaller scale additions). Something to be encouraged and sought out in general as the right blend often produces a more complex and interesting wine than a single variety.

On a couple of your other notes, your comment on CS certainly applies to most cheap CS I've tried. However a properly produced and aged CS is a wonderful, full bodied experience. Sangiovese - try a good Montalcino or perhaps Vino Nobile and you will change your opinion. Good Pinot Noir always tastes to me of spice and I agree with the description of Zinfandel!

To get started in this, the wine ships in November are perfect. Also if you live near a Mövenpick wine dealer, they have decent tastings every couple of months.

[portsmouth68]

Great introduction to the different varieties.

French producers are not permitted by law to add the grape variety to the front of the label although most now at least add it to the back (Appellation Controlee wines not Vins de Pays or Vin de Table).

This deliberate confusion is part of the snobbery element of wine IMO. The French believe that it is the 'terroir' of the land that makes the wine taste like it does (I agree with this) and therefore the place is substantially more important than the variety (which I also most agree with but less so than the previous statement).

There are four factors that will affect a wine's style. The Environment (more than just the weather), the grape variety, viticulture methods and finally winemaking.

One thing that you might want to think about is the subjectivity of wine. Taste we all understand to be objective, but what about quality?

[PlantHead]

Wine Tour of Alsace

I did a wine tour of the area last summer and got wonderfully drunk for free.
Even though it is an area of France they are allowed to put the grape type on their bottles, mainly because it was for a long time part of Germany.
The wine bottles from Alsace are tall, elegant and thin..think of the wine the French Archeologists gives Indie's Girlfriend in Raiders of the lost Arc.

The area mainly produces white sweet wines (the red I tried was terrible)
Grand Cru AOC on the bottle means it is a premier wine.

The big wine from the area is Gewürztraminer, which is a very sweet wine which surprisingly goes well with Asian food. Coop sell a reasonable Gewürztraminer, for me it is a marmite flavour, you either love it or hate it.


Riesling of course, however I prefered the ones I had tried from Germany, needless to say it is also sweet.

Pinot Gris is basically a white Pinot Noir and is called Pinot Grigio in Italy. The English often call it Tokay. It is also a sweet wine but no where near as sugary as the above two and therefore I prefer it.

Sylvaner is Liebfraumilch. Sort of a cheapy grape which is often thought of as bland. I actually quite liked it, which I guess says alot about my tastes.

I brought some 2008 Pinot Gris from Bruno Sorg, you can order it online from him and get it delivered in Switzerland. It was the least sweet Pinot Gris I could find.



Basically the idea is you go through the villages and try all the different wines from different producers. It's a lot of fun and you don't have to buy anything unless you want to.
The really interesting bit is seeing how different each grape can taste when produced by different people, the variety was quite surprising.

EDIT_ wow this thread grew quicker than I thought, I expected this to be post 2.

[adrianlondon]

Great write-up.

I second the point above about wines and food. Some of the French wines which many people find too full-bodied or "heavy" are not pleasant if drunk on their own, regardless of how expensive they are. However, have the right bottle with the right meal (depends on the sauce and method of cooking for the meat rather than just what meat it is) and it can be fantastic.

The French often sip, very slowly, on really expensive bottles of wine using water to quench thirst. That shows that the wine is part of the meal rather than just to drink.

Lighter wines, such as one of my favourite "let's open a bottle and drink it" types, will be a recent vintage Chilean Pinot Noir. You can get these in the UK for around £4-£6 and they are absolutely lovely. However, have it with a steak and it tastes wrong.

The French have great expertise in blending grapes (which is also why, until recently, they felt no need to even list them) to produce all sorts of flavours. New World wines used to stick to one grape as it's easier, and marketed well, so the French had to compete. Now, many New World wines are blending and people's tastes are becoming more sophisticated. However, that needs knowledge.

It's easier (for me) to buy a good Australian wine than a good French wine by just reading the label. But if I know what I'm doing (ie I've had a recommendation or seen it well described on a restaurant menu) then for me a great French wine wins.

[Jase]

I would say though not to get too hung up on the whole wine and food matching thing

e.g. someone once recommended me to drink a nice grüner veltliner from Austria with a steak - i was VERY pleasantly surprised

and also some people get different flavours out of the same wine - our taste buds are different - so what matches well with something for you might not match so well for someone else

i love my wine - which reminds me must give portsmouth a call we're out of whites!

[Treverus]

	Quote:	PlantHead
	Germany: Forget Liebfraumilch and Blue Nun and get Riesling, they are sweeter from around the Mosel Valley and dryer from the Rheingau. Not my grape but my misses likes it.

I come from a Riesling area (Mosel), so I would fully agree. But there is of course a bit more to discover, some suggestions:
- Riesling grapes make excellent sparkling wine, if you get a one from a decent winery, it can easily compete to the mass market champaigns that cost a multiple...

-There is a Southern German and Swiss speciality known as "Schillerwein" made out of a blend of red and white grapes that tastes and looks similar to rose (but often a bit better as only higher quality wines are allowed to be sold under this name in Germany). Your lady might love it as most ladies do...

[sojoh]

This is a good site for learning more about Swiss wines

And here's a site about wines from Geneva


And finally, if you live near Morges and like Californian wines, I recently saw the following notice in Swisster:

California wines honored in Morges
March 12, 2010 by David Moginier.
The next edition of the Arvinis winefair in Morges will feature California as guest of honor in April. Arvinis, a public winefair with 130 different producers from all over Europe, has made a deal with the Wine Institute of California.

Around 150 American wines will be on offer, among the 2,500 coming from Switzerland and Europe. Donald Bayer, the US Ambassador in Switzerland, will attend the inauguration, on April14.

For six days, just beside Morges’ railway station, the fair provides numerous events with a special emphasis on tasting as well as the marrying of wines and food. Some 20,000 people visit the show each year.

Arvinis, Halles CFF, 1110 Morges
April 14, 15, 16: 4-10pm
April 17: 11am-10pm
April 18: 11am-8pm
April 19: 4-10pm
Entry fee: 20 francs
www.arvinis.com

[Jase]

One of my all time favorite Rieslings from German is from Joh Jos Prum
http://www.thewinedoctor.com/germany/jjprum.shtml

Sublime. Simple sublime.

It was a real eye opener to someone who thought he didn't like "sweet German Rieslings"