Should our members answer the questions of the chronically lazy?

mark · #1 20.10.2006, 09:19

Something has been bugging me the last couple of days, and I wanted to ask if anyone has an opinion on it. I'm always bothered when people use message boards as a service because they are just too plain lazy to find something out for themselves. In many cases they don't even ask politely, they just seem to expect that they will be served. They seldom contribute anything, they see it just as a faceless service for their benefit. They are also often one-post wonders and never bother to search the forum or even check through subject lines, they arrive, post, leave and are never seen again.

Here's a couple of recent examples that got up my nose:

In this thread a user called coco writes:

	Quote:	coco
	I am leaving in Perth and I would like to know how to claim my LPP. I left Switzerland three years ago and I have no intention to come back.I would like to buy a house here and this money would be handy.

So far she hasn't returned to answer any of the questions she was asked or view the help that was given, but probably what irked me the most was that when I checked her profile she is Swiss with native French. I was tempted to say something on thread, but refrained. We foreigners work hard to try and figure out how things work in Switzerland, without the advantage of having information in our native language. That's what this forum is for. Should we also extend our "service" to native Swiss because they are obviously too lazy to pick up the telephone and make enquiries with their own government in their own language? I just think it's a little cheeky, that's all.

Then we had this thread where klikor writes:

	Quote:	klikor
	Can a Canadian get legally short-term jobs (under 3 months) in Suisse while travelling? Non EU members may visit Suisse for a period of 3 months without a visa. Is a permit required? If so, can the permit be obtained if already in Suisse? How long does it take to get it and where? Is such a permit required for all legal employment? Thanks.

Apart from failure to realise that the name of the country in English is "Switzerland" klikor has obviously made no attempt whatsoever to find this information out for him/herself. Asking at the local embassy would be a good starting point for those questions, rather than asking us.

I don't know about everyone else here, but when I ask a question on a forum I usually proceed it with some sort of polite pleasantries and explain a little bit about why I need the information, how I tried to find it elsewhere, how I would appreciate it if anyone could help me, etc. I mean the bottom line is that I am asking strangers to take the time to help me, so surely there should be some sort of manners displayed and ettiquette involved?

Am I just being old-fashioned or should I just accept that manners on the internet are optional?

More importantly, how should we deal with extreme laziness? Just delete the thread? Sarcastic remark about contacting the embassy? Ignoring it (except that eventually someone WILL help them, and they know it)? Telling them to bluntly naff off?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for helping people, but I feel that some of these recent posts are actually an abuse of what we are trying to do.

Thoughts?

DaveA · #2 20.10.2006, 09:29

I agree with you on this. Questions like:

"Where can I get a key cut ?"
Go into town. Turn right, Enter clearing, Go west, Go north. pick up key.

With questions services that are more subjective , like restaurants, then one expects more discussion.

It nice to have some preamble and later feedback to make what could be a banal question from the original poster, but you can't enforce it.

Check out the last couple of months of expats-in-Zürich. They are the banal-question-meisters.

dave

	Quote:	mark
	Something has been bugging me the last couple of days, and I wanted to ask if anyone has an opinion on it. I'm always bothered when people use message boards as a service because they are just too plain lazy to find something out for themselves. In many cases they don't even ask politely, they just seem to expect that they will be served.

Lob · #3 20.10.2006, 09:29

I agree.

And the level of information posted in response is directly related to the quality and clarity of the question.

Maybe some parts of the internet don't have Google?

#4 20.10.2006, 09:34

Would agree with Mark's sentiments.

Some of the questions are infantile and could be answered by a couple of clicks in a search engine (google) - by the person posing the question.

Perhaps Mark and other peoples goodwill is being taken a little for granted??

JC

mark · #5 20.10.2006, 09:37

Glad to hear I'm not the only one with a bee in his bonnet. In that case feel free to answer the threads I linked above

AbFab · #6 20.10.2006, 09:37

Why not give them this link:

www.justinggoogleit.com

mark · #7 20.10.2006, 09:42

Excellent link AbFab. Would work even better if embedded into a "click this". But in this case I would guess that they probably couldn't google it. Would all this information be provided by the Swiss government in English? Doubtful. Let's not forget that these people arrived here because they did google (but probably just clicked on our link because it was number 1).

These questions are a little different to the "where can I buy a bag of flour in Zurich" questions, so that's really what embassies are for. (let's forget for a moment that they sometimes give rubbish advice to people when they actually do ask!)

cathy20 · #8 20.10.2006, 09:54

I don't know....how would it be possible then to discriminate between a "lazy" question and a valid one? My husband is Swiss and he is as confused as we are about pensions, tax and insurance. Sometimes he would ask his father and friends but I don't think that is laziness because everyone tells him something different and also sometimes the rules change from Canton to Canton. Sometimes it is easier to ask people who have experienced the problem and see how they solved it and go on from there. Since we have no family (here who knows better than us) to ask then we ask the Forum these kinds of questions. But of course the people asking should explain themselves better so that the questions could be answered better.

Lob · #9 20.10.2006, 09:58

cathy - you have 13 posts and seem to have at least thought before you've posted.

It's easy to spot when you've been around for a while

A good example [of what to do] is this thread, for me, of how to have a short stay and add value to the forum (and I think Mark will agree that we're happy to carry valid advertisements for apartments from 1/2 post wonders). Kudos to indian_in_zurich in answering my question about Sky which might help him (I assume it's a he) to get a next renter for his apartment.

Principia Discordia · #10 20.10.2006, 09:59

How do I install Sky-TV?

DaveA · #11 20.10.2006, 09:59

I think you're right, the original poster should make at least as much effort in framing the questions and providing background as he expects others to make in order to answer his question. Then it has better chance of developing into a full-blown discussion, with more contributors.

dave

	Quote:	cathy20
	Sometimes it is easier to ask people who have experienced the problem and see how they solved it and go on from there. ... But of course the people asking should explain themselves better so that the questions could be answered better.

Lob · #12 20.10.2006, 10:00

	Quote:	Principia Discordia
	How do I install Sky-TV?

someone's knocked that funny bone this morning

Principia Discordia · #13 20.10.2006, 10:09

	Quote:	Lob Rockster
	someone's knocked that funny bone this morning

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. But yes, I think there comes a time when pretty much every "typical" question has been asked and answered multiple times, so a search of the forums would be far more prudent than asking yet again.

BoyD · #14 20.10.2006, 10:22

We've got the same problem on one of my sneakerhead sites.

The forum was set up to stop people wasting money on fakes and (like the Sky TV thread) lots of people put pretty big amounts of time and effort into drawing up very comprehensive and detailed posts on the subject.

Still "guests" register, post one question and then disappear with the answer.

Myself and the other 500+ posters are starting to get a bit tired.....

It's not the way an online community or forum evolves.....

BeastOfBodmin · #15 20.10.2006, 20:41

	Quote:	mark
	Am I just being old-fashioned or should I just accept that manners on the internet are optional?

I think that Netiquette rules for Usenet or mailing lists are probably appropriate. In the sense that this is a community, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect guests or registered users to make a certain amount of effort to find out what the "social norms" of this forum are.

Why not create a charter for the forum and stick it on the FAQ? Just now I searched for "charter" and "conduct" and got nowt back. I looked on the FAQ and it's just technical help on how to operate the machinery, so to speak.

We could start a thread to get ideas for content. We could set up a poll to see if there is support for the idea.

	Quote:	mark
	More importantly, how should we deal with extreme laziness? Just delete the thread? Sarcastic remark about contacting the embassy? Ignoring it (except that eventually someone WILL help them, and they know it)? Telling them to bluntly naff off?

Ignore them. Or _really_ ignore them and add them to your ignore list.

vishi · #16 21.10.2006, 02:59

Mark,

In this case I can only agree with you only half way....

Im a classic example.... I googled from small to large regarding living in switzerland... And the only stuff I got is a couple of forums like this (thats my original reason to enrol to this forum), and it was always a one page result back.... which is really bad in google terms...

What I am trying to say is, Switzerland is zilch in the global map and any search is pretty helpless according to me... Its getting better, but not anywhere closer to other country info..

BTW... What do we term lazy...? If you can find it in google, then isnt it lazy too...

But I do agree with you that its annoying that if people do find ithe info they want, they just fly away and dont bother to share it with the world... Thats where I value such forums like this....

Vishi

Jazz · #17 21.10.2006, 05:23

	Quote:	AbFab
	Why not give them this link: www.justinggoogleit.com

Nice link! I think I'll be sending that link on in the future.

I can sympathise a bit with people who searched the web and didn't come up with much. When you realise people have been there, done it and are willing to share info, it makes it very tempting to ask first and search later.

As for taking the info and not coming back...., surely the arcade section is far too addictive for that to happen

?

You could have a time limit on inactive members? Like Hotmail, a 3 month period of inactivity results in the details being deleted. At least it will make the members list realistic.

mark · #18 21.10.2006, 08:24

	Quote:	BeastOfBodmin
	Why not create a charter for the forum and stick it on the FAQ? Just now I searched for "charter" and "conduct" and got nowt back. I looked on the FAQ and it's just technical help on how to operate the machinery, so to speak.

It's coming - it's on the list. But I don't think it would make a difference for the really rude people, since they won't read it anyway.

	Quote:	trvishi
	In this case I can only agree with you only half way.... Im a classic example.... I googled from small to large regarding living in switzerland... And the only stuff I got is a couple of forums like this (thats my original reason to enrol to this forum), and it was always a one page result back.... which is really bad in google terms...

Sure - I don't mean we shouldn't help anyone. The focus of this forum was to help foreigners living in Switzerland figure out how everything worked, since we don't get any assistance in English. A side effect seems to be that we have become a source for all things Swiss for people outside of Switzerland. Again, no problems there, but if the person hasn't even contacted their embassy for their long list of visa questions I just consider it a little abusive to ask us to do their legwork for them. In the case of a Swiss asking us to explain their own country to them - I get a little bit upset. And in any case - even if there isn't much info - how hard is it to put a little bit of manners into a post?

	Quote:	Jazz
	You could have a time limit on inactive members? Like Hotmail, a 3 month period of inactivity results in the details being deleted. At least it will make the members list realistic.

We do delete inactive members who have never posted after 12 months, but not people who have posted. Why not? if someone has posted and then we delete them then their posts won't make much sense if the username changes to "Guest" or disappear. I'm not too concerned about the userlist, my main beef here is just expectation and attitude of some of these people, like the two I named in the example above.

misplacedheidi · #19 21.10.2006, 09:36

I'm glad you don't delete inactive people!

I'm more inactive now but I was more active earlier this year when I wanted people's opinions on relocating out of here. Then things have been quieter and I have not needed to post recently. Despite this, I do like browsing and will contribute if I think I can contribute something. Needs change depending on how long you have been here.

In all forums, you have the backbone of the community (you know who!), the heavy contributers, the light contributers and the occasional. Some people just like posting a lot or a little.

FWIW, I'm now leaving CH - nothing to do with our choice - company is moving us on again - but I may still have a look round the forum now and again (and may even post about leaving here too

).

It's a great forum - thank you!

Oldhand · #20 22.10.2006, 02:19

I actually stumbled on this site through Google when i was being nosey about something else. I dont really come under what most people need from this site after living here for so long and going through all the stuff new people go through. Infact nearly 25 years ago was a completely different picture.What i love about this site is being reminded about how i felt then and using my English.
So in many ways, regardless of why the site was created (and a fine job it's doing) it's also a great social place to delve into.Thats why i'm circumspect in my contributions, not out of lack of intrest but by being aware of how long i've been here and maybe how much my outlook has changed. So i'd say yes block the ignorant who cant be bothered to check out other places but allow lots of leeway for those who have contributed.
Oldhand