There seem to be a lot of intelligent, well-educated folks on this forum and I'm really interested in what the path taken and requirements are for the different disciplines, which seem to vary from discipline to discipline and country to country. Would people be willing to share their field, degree and path to get there?

I do post-doctoral research at the ETH, I'm planning on being a professor of chemistry at a PhD granting institution in the US.

Path:
BSc from the US. Requirements for degree: A certain number of general education requirement classes along with required classes for actual degree. To graduate you either had to do undergraduate research (I did 2 years) and write a thesis or take the Chemistry GRE which is a bitch of a standardized test.

PhD from US. Attainment of masters degree not required for acceptence into program. 1st year, classes, teaching, research and cumulative exams. 2nd year: 2-3 hour Oral exam where you defend an original research proposal
3rd-finished: Research, publications
To complete: Submission of thesis along with public Oral defense.

No need to be as detailed but I'm really interested to hear about the other degrees and countries.

Im not sure I understand the question. Paths to what, exactly ? Academia ? If which case , apply grant, study, research,publish until false.

dave

GCSEs (5 A*-C needed), then A levels (3 A-C needed),then chemistry BSc at Southampton. 3 years of lectures and practicals, exams every semester.
Then went straight to Ph.D at Southampton in inorganic materials and magnetism. Transferred to Glasgow half-way through as the supervisor moved and finished there. One year and a bit to write up (far too bloody long) and then thesis submission followed a few months later by viva with one external and one internal examiner. One month for corrections to be done.
I've ended up here at Bern doing more magnetism and more inorganic materials.

What is required to attain a bachelors? What is required to attain a masters? What is required to attain a PhD? All depending on the field or country.

I was just giving me as an example.

I know the path the academia. It's paved by long hours and not much pay.

A UK example from a friend: chucked out of school early; apprenticeship. OND Diploma with Distinctions all subjects; Sponsored to University on full salary BSc. Four years of dedicated hard beer drinking. Sponsored again for MSc. Two years of hard G&T drinking. I am sure there was a sprinkling of work in there somewhere.

dave

I've done quite a bit of research on Ph.D programs in German History in the United States. Such programs typically last five to six years -- they're open ended -- and typically end when you are actually hired by another academic institution to teach. One to two years are spent doing on-site research, i.e. in archives in Germany, and you typically teach courses as a teaching assistant following the completion of your first year. In addition, you are required to acquire an MA at the institution where you are studying for your Ph.D, hence any previous MAs are considered superfluous. It is a rather long, drawn-out process, hence I decided against it. Having married at such a young age, I am not as flexible as most candidates -- i.e. I do not feel comfortable with having to move frequently during the research phase of history programs.

In Switzerland most courses of study are fully integrated, or so I thought. If you're invited to studying beyond the MA level -- one of my wife's friends has been given such an invitation in "Germanistik" (Study of German Language and Literature) -- you will know ahead of time and have the opportunity to proceed further within your specific academic field. I have read some articles in the NZZ this spring about how difficult it is for academics to advance, and that they are very poorly paid in comparison to in the US (i.e. non-tenured professor) and the UK. One article was an excerpt from a speech delivered at the University of Zürich itself from a "teacher" (I'm not certain of his rank, so I'll leave it vague). Maybe this would be the equivalent of the visiting lecturer, but I'm not certain. For this reason I did not pursue a program at the ETH to which I was accepted. In addition, 80 percent of all professors at the University of Zürich are men because of the way that the system is currently constructed -- which promises no stability until one is about 40, hence driving most women who want children out.

Either way, I'm looking into law programs in the US now, but am also going to be pursuing an MA in history at the University of Zürich this coming autumn.

I know that there are other lecturers from the University of Zürich on here, as at least one has instructed my wife. And if you have any specific questions about the scientific community in Zürich, you can give me a question and I'll be glad to pass it along to my landlord -- he's a professor at the ETH.

My Aussie example:

BSc / BE (5yrs). A BSc takes 3yrs and a BE takes 4 - but if you get decent marks at school you can do a 5-year program that does both. Many of the subjects overlapped anyway.

Masters in Engineering (2yrs). A distinction average (>75%) in my BE was required to start this. At the end of these 2 years, you could write up your work, submit it and get your ME. Alternatively, you could demonstrate that you know what you are talking about and that there is a lot more original work that you can do - and if you succeed in convincing your superiors, then your Masters becomes upgraded to a PhD and you continue working. This means that you do not actually receive your Masters - because of this, a Masters in Australia is sometimes negatively viewed as a sort of "PhD drop-out" degree, which simply isn't true.

PhD (another 2yrs). Instead of writing stacks of publications and calling that your thesis (as is the case in many places - the Netherlands, for example), you write a thesis which takes the form of a really long paper. One or two journal publications to back up your work, and you're done.

Good luck chem.

My 'path' was GCSE 'O' levels -> 'A' Levels -> BSc Computing at Poly - > BA OU -> BA (HON) OU -> MBA.

I started working after Poly, and have no time for further iacademic study at the moment.

What I really wanted was more the requirements necessary to attain such degrees. For example, do classes need to be taken, are all the classes for your major or are their general education requirements, do you have to write a thesis, are there oral exams, is their an exit exam etc. etc. For say an MBA in business in Belgium or a PhD in History in France or a Bachelors in Engineering in New Zealand.

Because
Doesn't mean all that much to me since I don't know what 'O' levels are.

Then its a bit of a rhetorical question. If you want to know what the routes are then jamesk has given you a valid answer.

dave

I would like to advise that this is NOT the path to take - but then again I tend to make my life as hard as possible:
BSc. from a "liberal" college meaning over half of the courses had to be in my major (chemistry) then had to fulfill the other requirements (fine arts, international, social science, humanities) with courses from a list which allowed for variation and to easily obtain a minor. My senior year I spent 6 months in Ecuador which allowed for a minor in Spanish - that means jack here by the way. For my major we had to do one year of research. I did 3 years and 3 summers then write a senior thesis, take the chem GREs and get above a certain percentage within 3 tries as well as pass a 1 hr oral exam given by 2 chem faculty and 1 other faculty member from any other course you might have had. If you do not pass the chem GREs and the oral than you cannot graduate with a chemistry degree - even if you have passed every class along the way. This actually happens, and one girl a year ahead of me missed it by 2 questions the last week before graduation and was given a general science degree. Sucks.
Then I came here to get my PhD (here being the Uni of Zurich) to work for an American prof. Some "committee" full of God knows who evaluated my degree and then said my bachelors wasn't good enough. I've now taken 18 courses to bring my BSc to their "standards" and actually get my masters. Yes, I should have just returned to the states at that point but I'm stubborn. I will hopefully defend next month then actually start the PhD. I am praying I can still do my MS and PhD in 5 yrs total but still... it's been a constant battle!

ChemGoddess: Where did you get your degree?

To do a Bachelor of any kind in Victoria, Australia, you need to get a certain score for your 'VCE' which is the certificate upon leaving High School. It used to be called the 'HSC'. Alternatively a pupil can apply via mature age entry.

I completed a BSc(Hons) at Melbourne University, 3 years of class work, then the final honours year spent writing a thesis.

I could have gone on and completed Masters / PHd in that field with the right marks, or a favourable supervisor.

Later in Life I completed a Master of Information Systems Management / Master of Business Administration. This was a 4.5 year course part time but I fast tracked it and completed it in three years. It was all purely coursework, 18 subjects in total.

I could go on and do a DBA/PHd and one option is doing it in Zurich but not 100% sure yet what the process is for doing so other than what is written up on the ETH website.

Without descending in to US/UK bashing (please) it seems to me the Americans are much more interested in the specifics of a degree than the UK folks. In the UK it (correct me if I'm wrong) is seen as a means to an end, a lot of Americans seem to have a lot more passion for the degree itself.

Why is this?

I'm pretty sure its not just financial seeing as it's pretty crippling to put yourself through Uni in the UK too.

You need to find a supervisor who will support your PhD project either as an internal paid student, or external (which is easier to get in). Once you have a professor who will support your PhD topic, s/he will tell you everything that is required and if he does not know the administration department at ETH does. Most likely with your MBA background you would be steered toward Universität Zurich.

The next thing is a PhD here (CH) is not like a PhD in AU. PhD's here are normally for those heavily into the accademic world. With your background (MBA) I think a DBA through an AU university based here in Zurich, such as www.sbs.edu, would be better, it's structured, no language barriers.

If you want more info, please ask, I went through the same process about 4 years ago and have roughly the same background as you.

I've noticed that as well. My take on things after doing research in both the US and Europe, is that American students (well at least in my field) tend to like what they do more. The people I knew in undergrad and grad school who got their PhDs did so because they loved chemistry, not because it was a means to an end towards their 9-5 job (not saying this is true for everyone). I think this has a lot to do with the fact that in the US you do not come into college having to have had a major chosen. You can take classes in any field you want for basically the first year or two. I think this allows for students to chose something they really enjoy doing. I didn't really get into chemistry until my 3rd year of college. If I had had to choose my major a lot earlier I would have ended up doing something else that I might not have been as passionate about.

I think in the UK, if we are talking about first degrees, there is still the distinction between education and training. This distinction is important as the degree is not necessarily intended to equip one for a specific profession, but a high level of achievement in a specific field. There are other vocational qualifications (they were called HNC/HND, I don't know what they are now called) which do this better.

Many degrees are now tick-in-the-box qualifications and are available free in a packet of cornflakes. Not like when I were a lad etc etc....

Many people I know embarked-upon and indeed finished their degree without a clue at what they wanted to do. In fact a know a guy who finished his Phd and still has no clue. Obviously his career options have narrowed somewhat in virology.

In the UK a degree is often seen as a hurdle to be jumped to reach the echelons of a professional career. A filtering-out mechanism for recruiters.

It was traditionally funded, or assisted by the state, so if the ability and motivation was there, then doing an "approved" degree was encouraged. If you are sponsored by an employer, as is becoming increasingly common with the demise of government assistance, they are often interested only in applied subjects relative to their needs.

Nothstanding all that, most people that succeed in anything in life are highly motivated and make their own luck and opportunities. So if you are rubbing shoulders with the best then they are likely to be passionate about their work.

I can't imagine starting a Phd without a serious motivation to finish it. Indeed I went through this consideration quite recently and decided that the end result did not justify the effort involved, as the research aspect did not sit well with pragmatic commercial aspirations. During this investment appraisal, the Talacker weighting was applied and given due consideration.

dave

HI, Thanks for the info.

I prefer the Phd option as I would like to fuse my Information Systems background into a business oriented project. The DBA is costly, and difficult to get a scholarship or sponsorship for.

ETH seems to have a good Information Management Department for this kind of thing.

I was not aware of the SBU initiative with Southern Cross, quite interesting. I would be interested in hearing of your experiences of this course, and also your experience with applying at ETH if you have been down that path, in particular in selecting an appropriate project.