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  #181  
Old 23.08.2011, 19:12
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Yes, reality.

I did not make those arguments, you did, (up).
Well you need to work on your communication techniques then...
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  #182  
Old 23.08.2011, 21:36
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

Leaving homeopathy aside, Iíve been fascinated by the placebo effect for a long time. It does elude hard science, doesnít it? What tools can a scientist use to find out why a given patient has got better, taking just placebo. The healing power of the mind? That sounds like mumbo jumbo to scientists, doesnít it? Unless they can relate everything nicely to brainís neurotransmitters.

We had a lot of debates about the placebo effect when I was studying psychology. Everybody seemed to agree that it would be a pity if human psyche was defined and explained away as a by-product of our physiology.
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  #183  
Old 23.08.2011, 21:41
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Leaving homeopathy aside, Iíve been fascinated by the placebo effect for a long time. It does elude hard science, doesnít it? What tools can a scientist use to find out why a given patient has got better, taking just placebo. The healing power of the mind? That sounds like mumbo jumbo to scientists, doesnít it? Unless they can relate everything nicely to brainís neurotransmitters.

We had a lot of debates about the placebo effect when I was studying psychology. Everybody seemed to agree that it would be a pity if human psyche was defined and explained away as a by-product of our physiology.

It's the same reason we watch movies, and dare devils can perform agonizing painful acts. Controlling the nervous system, functions and feelings are just like hypnosis.
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  #184  
Old 24.08.2011, 15:09
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

[QUOTE=Moscat;1311532]I really hope that was a sarcastic sigh! Flat vs Round earth, Creationism vs Evolution, God vs Electrostatic Discharge (lightning bolts), etc, etc, etc. The will of the people is on the whole, not renowned for its' accurate reflections on how things really are! Scientific research attempts to light the way a little bit more in a few areas but is constantly fighting the engrained dogma and pre/misconceptions passed through the generations.

It wasn't actually meant to be sarcastic. Just that in this case thousands of people who have tried and had good results with homeopathy probably DO know better than scoffing scientists who would never dream of resorting to homeopathy if it was the last treatment on this earth available to them.
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  #185  
Old 24.08.2011, 15:15
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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...thousands of people ... probably DO know better ...
No they don't.

hthbidi
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  #186  
Old 24.08.2011, 15:21
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

Bidi? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bidi

Edit: Ah... found what it means...

Last edited by Carlos R; 24.08.2011 at 16:05.
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  #187  
Old 24.08.2011, 15:34
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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It wasn't actually meant to be sarcastic. Just that in this case thousands of people who have tried and had good results with homeopathy probably DO know better than scoffing scientists who would never dream of resorting to homeopathy if it was the last treatment on this earth available to them.
How many people try homepathy and don't get results?

How many just lie to their homeopathic friends about positive results just to get them to shut up already.
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  #188  
Old 24.08.2011, 15:42
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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How many people try homepathy and don't get results?

How many just lie to their homeopathic friends about positive results just to get them to shut up already.
That's par for course with believing in imaginary things. You get to thank them when things work, and not blame them when they don't. If it doesn't work, something is wrong with you, you see.
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  #189  
Old 24.08.2011, 15:47
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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That's par for course with believing in imaginary things. You get to thank them when things work, and not blame them when they don't. If it doesn't work, something is wrong with you, you see.
Homeopathy works in mysterious ways...
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  #190  
Old 24.08.2011, 15:55
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Leaving homeopathy aside, Iíve been fascinated by the placebo effect for a long time. It does elude hard science, doesnít it? What tools can a scientist use to find out why a given patient has got better, taking just placebo. The healing power of the mind? That sounds like mumbo jumbo to scientists, doesnít it? Unless they can relate everything nicely to brainís neurotransmitters.

We had a lot of debates about the placebo effect when I was studying psychology. Everybody seemed to agree that it would be a pity if human psyche was defined and explained away as a by-product of our physiology.
But there are many explanations and theories for the placebo effect, all with good grounding in physiology. It's just that there is little proof. We stop ourselves from getting skin cancer everyday through our own repair mechanisms, so why is it a surprise that the body's repair mechanisms sometimes need to play a little catch-up before a miracle cure. Likewise why should you be surprised about "positive" effects of the body's various hormones - e.g. effect of exercise on insulin control or stress management?
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  #191  
Old 24.08.2011, 16:04
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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...We stop ourselves from getting skin cancer everyday through our own repair mechanisms...
That is really cool when you think about it!
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  #192  
Old 24.08.2011, 16:05
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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But there are many explanations and theories for the placebo effect, all with good grounding in physiology. It's just that there is little proof. We stop ourselves from getting skin cancer everyday through our own repair mechanisms, so why is it a surprise that the body's repair mechanisms sometimes need to play a little catch-up before a miracle cure. Likewise why should you be surprised about "positive" effects of the body's various hormones - e.g. effect of exercise on insulin control or stress management?
But this was precisely my problem: Why does everything mental have to be explained away and reduced to physiology? Does that make psychology a spurious and redundant science? I have a lot of respect for hard science, but there are mysteries in the universe which are way beyond its grasp. On the other hand, I think there is room for a psychological explanation of the placebo effect, which will not mention hormones or neurotransmitters.
Certainly, humans are more than physiological machines, no?
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  #193  
Old 24.08.2011, 16:07
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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But this was precisely my problem: Why does everything mental have to be explained away and reduced to physiology? Does that make psychology a spurious and redundant science? I have a lot of respect for hard science, but there are mysteries in the universe which are way beyond its grasp. On the other hand, I think there is room for a psychological explanation of the placebo effect, which will not mention hormones or neurotransmitters.
Certainly, humans are more than physiological machines, no?
Psychology can also be explained by physiology - or what we know of it. HTH
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  #194  
Old 24.08.2011, 16:43
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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I have a lot of respect for hard science, but there are mysteries in the universe which are way beyond its grasp.
And that is why science keeps working on the answers and growing and religion huddles in its temples and says that the gospel will never change.

Seriously though, science is fully aware of the fact that it does not know everything, but is that really a good reason to throw everything away and discount all currently accepted or developing theories, just because we can't answer every single question about the universe.

Just because every physical effect in our bodies cannot currently be linked to a mental component is no reason to go running off to the witch doctors in tears.
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  #195  
Old 24.08.2011, 17:34
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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And that is why science keeps working on the answers and growing and religion huddles in its temples and says that the gospel will never change.

Seriously though, science is fully aware of the fact that it does not know everything, but is that really a good reason to throw everything away and discount all currently accepted or developing theories, just because we can't answer every single question about the universe.

Just because every physical effect in our bodies cannot currently be linked to a mental component is no reason to go running off to the witch doctors in tears.

Well said CW, especially: "Seriously though, science is fully aware of the fact that it does not know everything, but is that really a good reason to throw everything away and discount all currently accepted or developing theories, just because we can't answer every single question about the universe."

To which many would unfortunately take the approach that it's better to reject all that science has contributed to humanity todate and substitute the mutterings and ramblings of a lonely goatherd from 2000 years ago, I mean, it stands to reason dunnit?.
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  #196  
Old 24.08.2011, 17:48
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Well said CW, especially: "Seriously though, science is fully aware of the fact that it does not know everything, but is that really a good reason to throw everything away and discount all currently accepted or developing theories, just because we can't answer every single question about the universe."

To which many would unfortunately take the approach that it's better to reject all that science has contributed to humanity todate and substitute the mutterings and ramblings of a lonely goatherd from 2000 years ago, I mean, it stands to reason dunnit?.
Or Scientists can eat humble pie and admit there is more to reality than science. Or that science has yet to catch up with the true nature of reality. All is not what it seems. Science can only explain that which occurs within it's own system. Using itself to prove itself is akin to Christians saying God exists because it says so in the Bible. That life and reality are defined within algorithms and equations is simply ridiculous. That Science can or will be able to answer everything is sheer self indulging vanity.
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  #197  
Old 24.08.2011, 17:51
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Or Scientists can eat humble pie and admit there is more to reality than science. Or that science has yet to catch up with the true nature of reality. All is not what it seems. Science can only explain that which occurs within it's own system. Using itself to prove itself is akin to Christians saying God exists because it says so in the Bible. That life and reality are defined within algorithms and equations is simply ridiculous. That Science can or will be able to answer everything is sheer self indulging vanity.
And on what do you base these statements?
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  #198  
Old 24.08.2011, 17:53
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Or Scientists can eat humble pie and admit there is more to reality than science. Or that science has yet to catch up with the true nature of reality. All is not what it seems. Science can only explain that which occurs within it's own system. Using itself to prove itself is akin to Christians saying God exists because it says so in the Bible. That life and reality are defined within algorithms and equations is simply ridiculous. That Science can or will be able to answer everything is sheer self indulging vanity.
There is no more to reality than science. The definition of science is

The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

It's a process of the discovery of the universe with the only tools that make any sense. The tools that built the computer you use every day. The air traffic control systems that keep your plan from crashing. And yes, the medications that keep you from dying. Science is everything.

Now, what it doesn't mean is that practising science is flawless (there's always room for bias in the practise of science - not the fault of science of course but rather the fault of the practitioners) or that our current knowledge of science is all there is.

But science is all we have.
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  #199  
Old 24.08.2011, 17:58
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Or Scientists can eat humble pie and admit there is more to reality than science. Or that science has yet to catch up with the true nature of reality. All is not what it seems. Science can only explain that which occurs within it's own system. Using itself to prove itself is akin to Christians saying God exists because it says so in the Bible. That life and reality are defined within algorithms and equations is simply ridiculous. That Science can or will be able to answer everything is sheer self indulging vanity.

What utter bollocks! Science does not profess to know all that there is to know, the entire purpose of science is to try to find out what there is.
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  #200  
Old 24.08.2011, 18:03
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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What utter bollocks! Science does not profess to know all that there is to know, the entire purpose of science is to try to find out what there is.
I never claimed that.

Sheer vanity and self indulgence.
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