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  #141  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:12
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Why not allow this wonderful thinking in all life, give the consumer more choice! Real pills of counterfit pills made from rat poison, who knows? Toys with lead paint or without lead paint, why should it even be an issue? If the seller says what it is, then that's what it is. So the computer you ordered turns out ot be a pile of bricks in a box, who's to say that isn't really a computer? No accountablility, consumers rejoice! a new dawn of freedom is upon us, a better brighter future.
Yes, it's all about choice. You appear not to like people having a choice.
I suppose you would strip people of their vote and vote on their behalf, "because you know better". Whether people make the right choice, retrospectively, or not, is irrelevant. Having made their own choice is completely relevant and highly objective to the debate on this thread about the effectiveness of Homeopathy as a placebo. If a patient has the choice, and the belief, then these combine to increase the placebo effect, and that's a good thing isn't it ?
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  #142  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:15
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

Is it not just...water.. ? (ffwd to 01.32)




I used the car sick remedy of the homeopathic range..didn't work at all, is it not all between the ears they say?
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  #143  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:18
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Yes, it's all about choice. You appear not to like people having a choice.
I suppose you would strip people of their vote and vote on their behalf, "because you know better". Whether people make the right choice, retrospectively, or not, is irrelevant. Having made their own choice is completely relevant and highly objective to the debate on this thread about the effectiveness of Homeopathy as a placebo. If a patient has the choice, and the belief, then these combine to increase the placebo effect, and that's a good thing isn't it ?
If the choice was between receiving treatment that was proven effective and a placebo that was called a placebo you would have a point. The difference is that homeopathy is being prescribed, not as a placebo, but as an effective treatment, even though it's not (not an effective treatment) But, if you know what you are taking is a placebo it ceases to really be a placebo, no? Anyone can refuse treatment, but accepting a treatment that is falsely promoted as effective is not the same as saying "just give me a placebo doc".

Placebo. Just had to type it one more time.
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  #144  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:20
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Yes, it's all about choice. You appear not to like people having a choice.
I suppose you would strip people of their vote and vote on their behalf, "because you know better". Whether people make the right choice, retrospectively, or not, is irrelevant. Having made their own choice is completely relevant and highly objective to the debate on this thread about the effectiveness of Homeopathy as a placebo. If a patient has the choice, and the belief, then these combine to increase the placebo effect, and that's a good thing isn't it ?
I'm for choice, informed choice. The patient seems to have a choice, but a false belief in the effectiveness, homeopathy must pretend to be something that it cannot be in order to get a marginal benefit in some patients. The better it gets a pretending to be something it is not, the more dangerous it becomes as people start to believe it will do things it cannot. That's a terrible thing.
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  #145  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:23
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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I'm for choice, informed choice. The patient seems to have a choice, but a false belief in the effectiveness, homeopathy must pretend to be something that it cannot be in order to get a marginal benefit in some patients. The better it gets a pretending to be something it is not, the more dangerous it becomes as people start to believe it will do things it cannot. That's a terrible thing.
Don't all placebos rely on a false belief ? Aren't all placebos, even allopathically prescribed ones, pretending to be something they are not ?

Facts: Homeopathy , when prescribed through the logic of being a Placebo, are safe, gentle, effective and cheap.

Who are we to argue against that ? Why even bother getting involved.
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  #146  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:25
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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If the choice was between receiving treatment that was proven effective and a placebo that was called a placebo you would have a point. The difference is that homeopathy is being prescribed, not as a placebo, but as an effective treatment, even though it's not (not an effective treatment) But, if you know what you are taking is a placebo it ceases to really be a placebo, no? Anyone can refuse treatment, but accepting a treatment that is falsely promoted as effective is not the same as saying "just give me a placebo doc".

Placebo. Just had to type it one more time.
We are debating homeopathy prescribed through the logic of being a placebo. This thread is all about placebo.

Patients do not ask for placebos. That would invalidate the argument of it being a placebo. As I mentioned earlier, aren't all placebos falsely promoted ?
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  #147  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:26
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

I must say it's a slight bit ironic to see some members of our resident Religion Defense Force giving UtH2008 a hard time about championing unproven things on the basis that they make people feel better.
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  #148  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:27
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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a hard time about championing unproven things on the basis that they make people feel better.

So does the sun.. do you hear me raving about it ?

Medicines are there for a reason.. i agree that some homeopathic medicine work, and if they do , they are sold as just " medicine "...
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  #149  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:35
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Don't all placebos rely on a false belief ? Aren't all placebos, even allopathically prescribed ones, pretending to be something they are not?

Facts: Homeopathy , when prescribed through the logic of being a Placebo, are safe, gentle, effective and cheap.
AFAIK, placebos aren't used that widely in general medicine anymore, as they are considered unethical, deliberately deceiving the consumer.

Fact, homepathy is never prescribed as a placebo, the patient must be fooled into thinking it is not a placebo. They are cheap to make, but have an outrageous mark up to the consumer, repeated and unnecassary prescriptions are made, simply to mollify the consumer.

Someone else is deciding for the consumer what is best for them, and keeping them uniformed about it.
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  #150  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:38
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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AFAIK, placebos aren't used that widely in general medicine anymore, as they are considered unethical, deliberately deceiving the consumer.
Source please. I dispute that statement.

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Fact, homepathy is never prescribed as a placebo, the patient must be fooled into thinking it is not a placebo.
Source please. I dispute that statement.

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They are cheap to make, but have an outrageous mark up to the consumer.
As are all medicines. You live in Switzerland right ?

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Someone else is deciding for the consumer what is best for them, and keeping them uniformed about it.
As is the case in all prescriptions surely ?
Most patients are blissfully ignorant of what they are taking and the pharmacological action etc.
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  #151  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:44
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Source please. I dispute that statement.
Oh OK, it was on the homepathy page and appears to apply to the UK only.

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Source please. I dispute that statement.
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Patients do not ask for placebos. That would invalidate the argument of it being a placebo. As I mentioned earlier, aren't all placebos falsely promoted ?
You

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As are all medicines. You live in Switzerland right ?
Yes, but at least they work better than placebos

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As is the case in all prescriptions surely ?
Most patients are blissfully ignorant of what they are taking and the pharmacological action etc.
So because they are ignorant, it is ethical to sell a placebo rather than something more effective? That's the point of medicine really, that they work whether the patient believes in them or not.
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  #152  
Old 23.08.2011, 16:52
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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So because they are ignorant, it is ethical to sell a placebo rather than something more effective? That's the point of medicine really, that they work whether the patient believes in them or not.
It is highly ethical to supply/prescribe a cheap, safe gentle alternative, if that is the best treatment plan a Dr believes to be best (Not a homeopathic Dr...)

"Primum non nocere"

Modern allopathic medicines by comparison can be quiet harsh, expensive and yield no better results. If the prescription is a placebo, it is because that's what the physician feels is best for the patient. Who are we to argue with that ? Why would a Dr prescribe a placebo over and above a medicine that is "supposed" to work better ? That does not make sense.
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  #153  
Old 23.08.2011, 17:04
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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Modern allopathic medicines by comparison can be quiet harsh, expensive and yield no better results.
Uhmmm, source? Many medicines are very effective, graded as they are, against placebos........ In that medicines are not considered effective until shown to be more effective than a placebo.

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If the prescription is a placebo, it is because that's what the physician feels is best for the patient. Who are we to argue with that ? Why would a Dr prescribe a placebo over and above a medicine that is "supposed" to work better ? That does not make sense.
And it's still considered unethical by many. But yeah, given a whiney patient with not much wrong with them, a placebo is probably the only way to shut them up. But that doctor is breaking a trust, why should he prescribe a placebo, at extra cost, when perhaps the better treatment is a dose of the truth.
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  #154  
Old 23.08.2011, 17:07
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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And it's still considered unethical by many. But yeah, given a whiney patient with not much wrong with them, a placebo is probably the only way to shut them up. But that doctor is breaking a trust, why should he prescribe a placebo, at extra cost, when perhaps the better treatment is a dose of the truth.
So now to prove your point you are blaming patients and Dr's alike ? Where are you taking this argument ??
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  #155  
Old 23.08.2011, 17:14
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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So now to prove your point you are blaming patients and Dr's alike ? Where are you taking this argument ??
What? I'm not blaming anybody, I was just trying to imagine a situation in which a placebo may be acceptable, when the patient is adamant they need something and the doctor is exasperated enough to give in. Is it ethical?

Is giving an inactive substance to invoke an effect that is only effective for a minority of patients really ethical? It's not a terribly strong effect either.
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  #156  
Old 23.08.2011, 17:42
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

I wouldn't say all placebos are safe. Prescribing antibiotics as placebos to patients who come in with viral infections has contributed significantly to the rise in drug resistant bacteria. Not directly unsafe, but dangerous in the long-term. Not all placebos are sugar pills or water.

But I may have lost track....are we still on placebos, homeopathy, or both?
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  #157  
Old 23.08.2011, 17:46
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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I wouldn't say all placebos are safe. Prescribing antibiotics as placebos to patients who come in with viral infections has contributed significantly to the rise in drug resistant bacteria. Not directly unsafe, but dangerous in the long-term. Not all placebos are sugar pills or water.

But I may have lost track....are we still on placebos, homeopathy, or both?
Definitely. Prescribing the wrong medicine is not the same as prescribing placebo. A placebo is a substance with no known medical effect. What you describe is just poor medical practice.

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1. A harmless pill, medicine, or procedure prescribed more for the psychological benefit to the patient than for any physiological effect.
2. A substance that has no therapeutic effect, used as a control in testing new drugs.
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  #158  
Old 23.08.2011, 17:51
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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It is highly ethical to supply/prescribe a cheap, safe gentle alternative, if that is the best treatment plan a Dr believes to be best (Not a homeopathic Dr...)
So, if you were to design a controlled Phase III clinical trial to test the effectiveness of your placebo, what would you use as a placebo control?
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  #159  
Old 23.08.2011, 17:54
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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So does the sun.. do you hear me raving about it ?

Medicines are there for a reason.. i agree that some homeopathic medicine work, and if they do , they are sold as just " medicine "...
They aren't homeopathic then
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  #160  
Old 23.08.2011, 17:54
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Re: The medical advantages of homeopathy

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So, if you were to design a controlled Phase III clinical trial to test the effectiveness of your placebo, what would you use as a placebo control?
He'd let the patient choose.
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