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  #181  
Old 29.07.2010, 13:57
economisto
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I circumcised my cat last night. He is now against circumcision.

  #182  
Old 29.07.2010, 13:58
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland

Don't do it. It's madness to numb and impair a child's sex organ for cosmetic purposes. I'd pay gobs to get mine back.
  #183  
Old 29.07.2010, 13:59
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland

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Don't do it. It's madness to numb and impair a child's sex organ for cosmetic purposes. I'd pay gobs to get mine back.
duplicate posting!
  #184  
Old 29.07.2010, 14:07
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I circumcised my cat last night. He is now against circumcision.
A Feline mohel.Imagine that.

Does your cat have claws? If so, you're both lucky to be alive.
  #185  
Old 29.07.2010, 14:07
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland

Sorry, didn't think anyone was reading that old thread, or that it was a mortal sin to double post.
  #186  
Old 29.07.2010, 14:12
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland

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If you do want to do this, please make sure it is under anaesthetic, at least if the famous study done on the subject is to be believed. Babies who were circumcised without it under the age of 6 months were shown to be more sensitive to pain, than those who where anaesthetised, who in turn had a lower pain threshold than those who weren't circumcised at all.
My understanding (from the experience of my grandchildren) is that currently, in California, circumcision is performed on babies under general anesthaesia. That seems not to be the case in the East (where circumcision is anyway more common -- there are interesting statistics, by State).

There is (as another contributor has noted) heated discussion on the subject all over the Internet. Apart from Muslims and Jews (the former waiting until the child is older -- when I was in Algeria I was told 8 years of age is common; and the latter holding a bris at 8 days), it's uncommon in Europe, as you know already. Queen Victoria was a supporter of circumcision here in England, but apparently Princess Diana opposed it and Princes Harry and William (unlike their father) were not circumcised.

The peer-reviewed reporting that circumcision reduces HIV risk has, in effect, given it new support within the medical profession. Or so says our daughter, who studied medicine at Cambridge.

Meanwhile, the Christian Protestant, Aldeeb Abu-Sahlieh, formerly of the Swiss Institute of Comparative Law, is a vociferous opponent of voluntary infant circumcision. Whether he has had his desired effect of hardening Swiss practice I can't say.
  #187  
Old 29.07.2010, 14:12
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland

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Huh? What's your background in epidemiology to make such claims? Are you suggesting that all epidemiological and or other studies are indefeasible?

You accept the fact that studies have been done, but then dismiss them out of hand. As I understand it, that's not how good discussions happen. Nor, for that matter, good science.

I'm also not mixing anything up. You say that there is no evidence of the medical benefit of circumcision.



I say there is and provide you with a good starting point...

I look forward to reading your editorial/letter to the author in Paediatrics... You have the citation from my post, and here's the link for submission to help you on your way.

Again you misquote me, I am arguing against arbitrary circumcision where there is no good medical reason for circumcision or there are better non invasive non surgical treatments. You site one medical journal, I think you will find if you contact the BMA they will concur with me, You have to take the wide spectrum of medical knowledge into consideration. It is not science to misquote take research or findings out of context, and not do appropriate statistical cross-referencing of your data. Need I remind you that in your last post you proposed that circumcision was a prevention for HIV, I think Borat was more accurate with his 'Gypsy tears' remedy.

Circumcision is purely social cultural and or religious it has no hard scientific data to back up it's validity for prevention or decreasing likelihood of conditions that may or may not occur to the patient when applied arbitrarily.
  #188  
Old 29.07.2010, 14:17
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

How is the culture of circumcision perpetuated outside of religion? I would like to exclude religion from this question.

I can't believe a single mother for example would think to have her son circumcised. She does not have a penis and I would therefore assume that she would consult a doctor, who would hopefully tell her that we are no longer living in biblical times.

Fathers however, those who have been circumcised, would be the only people perpetuating the culture of circumcision. The only reason for this could be foreskin envy.

'If i don't have a foreskin, then nobody can have a foreskin and I surely don't want my son to have something I never had!'

It has to be foreskin envy on the part of fathers. I can't think of any other reason.
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  #189  
Old 29.07.2010, 14:17
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland

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it has no hard scientific data
I feel Carlos R's source of a peer reviewed medical journal is hard scientific data, especially with the Impact Factor of Pediatrics. I don't know why you'd think the BMA is the sole source of truth in medicine. Even so, the BMAs view is this
There is a spectrum of views within the BMA’s membership about whether non-therapeutic male circumcision is a beneficial, neutral or harmful procedure or whether it is superfluous, and whether it should ever be done on a child who is not capable of deciding for himself. The medical harms or benefits have not been unequivocally proven but there are clear risks of harm if the procedure is done inexpertly. The Association has no policy on these issues. Indeed, it would be difficult to formulate a policy in the absence of unambiguously clear and consistent medical data on the implications of the intervention. As a general rule, however, the BMA believes that parents should be entitled to make choices about how best to promote their children’s interests, and it is for society to decide what limits should be imposed on parental choices. What those limits currently are is discussed below, together with the legal and ethical considerations for doctors asked to perform non-therapeutic circumcision.

taken from here
http://www.bma.org.uk/ethics/consent...iccircumcision

It really seems, therefore, that you out and out lied about the BMAs views on this matter.
  #190  
Old 29.07.2010, 14:23
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland

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That's interesting, 'cos there is evidence of the benefits of having Jonny chopped:
  • 10- to 20-fold protective benefit of newborn circumcision against severe urinary tract infections (UTIs) in the first year of life
  • preventing transmission of HIV
  • prevention of infant balanoposthitis and phimosis
  • prevention of HIV acquisition
  • reduction of penile cancer incidcen
  • reduction of penile dermatoses
  • chlamydia infection is 3 times more common in female partners of uncircumcised men than in female partners of circumcised men
PEDIATRICS Vol. 118 No. 1 July 2006, pp. 385-387.

Now, I'm no fan of having the chop, but I accept that there are medically justified reasons for it. I therefore don't agree with your view that the medical consensus is that it is a bad thing, as there is evidence that it has benefits - see above.
But what are the absolute chances of these?

For instance, I wouldn't have thought that HIV transmission or acquisition rates are very relevant to people in Switzerland.

There might be a large reduction in UTIs, but if it's from 0.002% to 0.0001% maybe it's not that interesting. Similarly, is a UTI that serious . . . serious enough to justify circumcision?
  #191  
Old 29.07.2010, 14:29
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

When my nephew was born it was next to impossible to find a reputable doctor that did circumcisions!

We had to go to....ENGLAND
  #192  
Old 29.07.2010, 14:33
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland

We have two discussions on similar themes, yet this thread is about circumcision here in Switzerland. The 'right or wrong' thread is the place to discuss one's views. Thank you.

Last edited by Uncle Max; 29.07.2010 at 21:50. Reason: added link
  #193  
Old 29.07.2010, 14:35
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland

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Again you misquote me, I am arguing against arbitrary circumcision where there is no good medical reason for circumcision or there are better non invasive non surgical treatments.
Let me put it simply:

JlR: there is no evidence that arbitrary circumcision has health benefits
CR: yes there is, here is a short review with cross references, available freely from a peer review journal
JlR: there is no evidence that arbitrary circumcision has health benefits

What else can I say?

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You site one medical journal, I think you will find if you contact the BMA they will concur with me.
Interestingly, Andy02's daughter might disagree with you there.

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You have to take the wide spectrum of medical knowledge into consideration. It is not science to misquote take research or findings out of context, and not do appropriate statistical cross-referencing of your data.
Thanks for the Medical Research 101 lesson. I'll certainly be able to do my job better now that I know where I've been going wrong all these years.

FYI, I don't cite a journal, I cite a single article which reviewed the subject (albeit the opinion of someone in favour of circumcision) which cross references the research/data supporting his view. As I said a good starting point.

Did you even look at it, let alone read it? Or have you already made your mind up?

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Need I remind you that in your last post you proposed that circumcision was a prevention for HIV, I think Borat was more accurate with his 'Gypsy tears' remedy.
Another "whatever" comment. I wrote that there is evidence that it prevents transmission and/or acquisition. Put another way it reduces the risk. Happier now?

However, keep in mind that is something reduces the risk, it de facto also prevents something from happening. That might not be in 100% of the cases, but the language used is correct.

FYI there is similar evidence that circumcision reduces the risk of cervical cancer transmission between different sexual partners.

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Circumcision is purely social cultural and or religious it has no hard scientific data to back up it's validity for prevention or decreasing likelihood of conditions that may or may not occur to the patient when applied arbitrarily.
Why don't you actually bring some evidence to the discussion instead of repeating your opinion?
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Last edited by Carlos R; 29.07.2010 at 21:15.
  #194  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:07
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Medically and hygienically? I believe its right, loads of published studies show the benefits.

Just to mention a few ( I have a lot more references that I can send upon request).

Fink AJ. Newborn circumcision: a long-term strategy for AIDS prevention. J Roy Soc Med 1990; 83: 673

Ginsburg CM, McCracken GH. Urinary tract infections in young children. Pediatrics 1982; 69: 409-12

Jessamine PG, et al. Human immunodeficiency virus, genital ulcers and the male forskin: synergism in HIV-1 transmission. Scand J Infect Dis 1990 (suppl 69): 181-6

Kochen M, McCurdy S. Circumcision and risk of cancer of the penis. A life-table analysis. Am J Dis Child 1980; 134: 484-6

Spach DH, et al. Lack of circumcision increases the risk of urinary tract infections in young men. J Am Med Assoc 1992; 267: 679-81

Taylor PK, Rodin P. Herpes genitalis and circumcision. Br J Ven Dis 1975; 51: 274-7
  #195  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:08
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland

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That's interesting, 'cos there is evidence of the benefits of having Jonny chopped:
  • 10- to 20-fold protective benefit of newborn circumcision against severe urinary tract infections (UTIs) in the first year of life
  • preventing transmission of HIV
  • prevention of infant balanoposthitis and phimosis
  • prevention of HIV acquisition
  • reduction of penile cancer incidcen
  • reduction of penile dermatoses
  • chlamydia infection is 3 times more common in female partners of uncircumcised men than in female partners of circumcised men
PEDIATRICS Vol. 118 No. 1 July 2006, pp. 385-387.

Now, I'm no fan of having the chop, but I accept that there are medically justified reasons for it. I therefore don't agree with your view that the medical consensus is that it is a bad thing, as there is evidence that it has benefits - see above.
If i get my arms chopped off, I have a 100% success rate of preventing tennis elbow.
  #196  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:14
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I believe that circumcisions should only be used in certain circumstances

Now say that 100 times really fast
  #197  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:17
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Circumcision is just another stupid Middle Eastern superstition. Either a stupid way of bonding with imaginary deity or the people around then were dirty mother-fu**Kers who kept getting diseased.

Even if there is evidence that it may reduce the chance of certain rare diseases by a miniscule probability, I doubt anyone would say it was worth it. Chopping off the most sensitive part of your body ain't worth anything. I love it when they quote AIDS: give me a break, you can avoid AIDS by just behaving properly and taking appropriate cautions. Why don't I chop off my whole colon to prevent cancer down there while I am it.

People who go around quoting fairly meaningless medical studies are just trying to justify an ancient grotesque ritual.

If Jews, Christians, and Muslims wanna snip themselves to show loyalty to God, go ahead. But the rest of us sane people should just move on.
  #198  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:17
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Medically and hygienically? I believe its right, loads of published studies show the benefits.

Just to mention a few ( I have a lot more references that I can send upon request).

Fink AJ. Newborn circumcision: a long-term strategy for AIDS prevention. J Roy Soc Med 1990; 83: 673



Jessamine PG, et al. Human immunodeficiency virus, genital ulcers and the male forskin: synergism in HIV-1 transmission. Scand J Infect Dis 1990 (suppl 69): 181-6



Taylor PK, Rodin P. Herpes genitalis and circumcision. Br J Ven Dis 1975; 51: 274-7
Surely using a condom and not having sex with lots of strangers who you hardly know are far better ways to combat HIV and Herpes?
  #199  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:21
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Circumcision is just another stupid Middle Eastern superstition. Either a stupid way of bonding with imaginary deity or the people around then were dirty mother-fu**Kers who kept getting diseased.

Even if there is evidence that it may reduce the chance of certain rare diseases by a miniscule probability, I doubt anyone would say it was worth it. Chopping off the most sensitive part of your body ain't worth anything. I love it when they quote AIDS: give me a break, you can avoid AIDS by just behaving properly and taking appropriate cautions. Why don't I chop off my whole colon to prevent cancer down there while I am it.

People who go around quoting fairly meaningless medical studies are just trying to justify an ancient grotesque ritual.

If Jews, Christians, and Muslims wanna snip themselves to show loyalty to God, go ahead. But the rest of us sane people should just move on.
Isn't that what some women who are susceptible to breast cancer do?

Edit: With their breasts and not their colon obviously...
  #200  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:23
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Even if there is evidence that it may reduce the chance of certain rare diseases by a miniscule probability, I doubt anyone would say it was worth it. Chopping off the most sensitive part of your body ain't worth anything. I love it when they quote AIDS: give me a break, you can avoid AIDS by just behaving properly and taking appropriate cautions. Why don't I chop off my whole colon to prevent cancer down there while I am it.
I also find it kinda funny that they keep rely on not having AIDS by not wearing the turtle neck.. It is really irresponsible
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