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  #201  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:24
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Circumcision is just another stupid American and Middle-Eastern superstition. Either a stupid way of bonding with imaginary deity or the people around then were dirty mother-fu**Kers who kept getting diseased.

Even if there is evidence that it may reduce the chance of certain rare diseases by a miniscule probability, I doubt anyone would say it was worth it. Chopping off the most sensitive part of your body ain't worth anything. I love it when they quote AIDS: give me a break, you can avoid AIDS by just behaving properly and taking appropriate cautions. Why don't I chop off my whole colon to prevent cancer down there while I am it.

People who go around quoting fairly meaningless medical studies are just trying to justify an ancient grotesque ritual.

If Jews, Christians, and Muslims wanna snip themselves to show loyalty to God, go ahead. But the rest of us sane people should just move on.
HTH
  #202  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:24
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Isn't that what some women who are susceptible to breast cancer do?

Edit: With their breasts and not their colon obviously...
Thanks for a better example of the false logic involved. It would be just like woman removing their mammaries pre-puberty to avoid breast cancer. And breast cancer is much more highly prevalent than any of those conditions of the penis mentioned.

But the point is: the logic is absolultey illogical. If we followed the logic of circumcision for medical reasons, we would chop off every part of our body to avoid any infection or disease there.
  #203  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:24
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Circumcision is just another stupid Middle Eastern superstition. Either a stupid way of bonding with imaginary deity or the people around then were dirty mother-fu**Kers who kept getting diseased.

Even if there is evidence that it may reduce the chance of certain rare diseases by a miniscule probability, I doubt anyone would say it was worth it. Chopping off the most sensitive part of your body ain't worth anything. I love it when they quote AIDS: give me a break, you can avoid AIDS by just behaving properly and taking appropriate cautions. Why don't I chop off my whole colon to prevent cancer down there while I am it.

People who go around quoting fairly meaningless medical studies are just trying to justify an ancient grotesque ritual.

If Jews, Christians, and Muslims wanna snip themselves to show loyalty to God, go ahead. But the rest of us sane people should just move on.

Religous nonsense aside, it is an assault on a minor, intefering with a minor in a sexual fashion , grevious bodily harm... the list goes on. What bloody right do we have to do this to infants in our care ? Barbaric, shameful and potentially very harmful to mind , body and spirit.
  #204  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:27
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Medically and hygienically? I believe its right, loads of published studies show the benefits.

Just to mention a few ( I have a lot more references that I can send upon request).

Fink AJ. Newborn circumcision: a long-term strategy for AIDS prevention. J Roy Soc Med 1990; 83: 673

Ginsburg CM, McCracken GH. Urinary tract infections in young children. Pediatrics 1982; 69: 409-12

Jessamine PG, et al. Human immunodeficiency virus, genital ulcers and the male forskin: synergism in HIV-1 transmission. Scand J Infect Dis 1990 (suppl 69): 181-6

Kochen M, McCurdy S. Circumcision and risk of cancer of the penis. A life-table analysis. Am J Dis Child 1980; 134: 484-6

Spach DH, et al. Lack of circumcision increases the risk of urinary tract infections in young men. J Am Med Assoc 1992; 267: 679-81

Taylor PK, Rodin P. Herpes genitalis and circumcision. Br J Ven Dis 1975; 51: 274-7
Most of the STD infections might be a justification for circumcision in countries where condom use is not common. Obviously the use of condoms is preferable though and these sort of papers have less relevance somewhere like Switzerland.

With something like UTIs, how serious are these? I'm pretty sure most of these are just temporarily discomforting, so I'm not sure they can justify circumcision.
  #205  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:29
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Thanks for a better example of the false logic involved. It would be just like woman removing their mammaries pre-puberty to avoid breast cancer. And breast cancer is much more highly prevalent than any of those conditions of the penis mentioned.

But the point is: the logic is absolultey illogical. If we followed the logic of circumcision for medical reasons, we would chop off every part of our body to avoid any infection or disease there.
I dunno. Genital herpes affects about 20% of the population. Breast cancer is closer to 10%.

Plus transmission of genital herpes isn't always prevented with a condom.

Edit: Your logic seems to be a bit off. The foreskin is relatively small and the absence won't really be noticed if removed at a young age. Cutting of a child colon or breasts would be far more noticeable. In fact some women probably prefer a snipped penis. Of course it's a clear indication that she isn't a keeper if that's an issue

For the record I'm not for or against circumcision. I don't really care either way.
  #206  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:32
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I dunno. Genital herpes affects about 20% of the population. Breast cancer is closer to 10%.

Plus transmission of genital herpes isn't always prevented with a condom.
But breast cancer is far more serious, isn't it?

Even if there is a chance of reducing the risk of herpes, isn't that a choice for an adult to make for themselves rather than the parents make the choice for the child?
  #207  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:32
economisto
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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. It would be just like woman removing their mammaries pre-puberty to avoid breast cancer.
Nah, it's more like chopping off the bottom third of your ear lobe to avoid brain cancer.


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. But the point is: the logic is absolultey illogical. If we followed the logic of circumcision for medical reasons, we would chop off every part of our body to avoid any infection or disease there.
And if we followed the logic of washing to be cleaner we'd spend our whole lives in the shower....is this really as far as your conception of logic goes HB?

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Religous nonsense aside, it is an assault on a minor, intefering with a minor in a sexual fashion , grevious bodily harm... the list goes on. What bloody right do we have to do this to infants in our care ? Barbaric, shameful and potentially very harmful to mind , body and spirit.
After your much-needed counselling to get over the obvious trauma you've (seen others) experienced, let's get down to reality. It's a tiny, useless speck of skin. The newborn doesn't feel it being chopped - they rarely even cry, even at the stage where they are crying due to a wet nappy. Almost everyone goes on to lead happy, healthy lives afterwards and it's a fact that it prevents certain illnesses etc. So, relax, the millions upon millions of people who've had it does are doing just fine.
  #208  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:33
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I dunno. Genital herpes affects about 20% of the population. Breast cancer is closer to 10%.

Plus transmission of genital herpes isn't always prevented with a condom.
So you're basically saying that if breast cancer had a 20% rate, you would recommend all women chop off their breasts?!?!

Again, the numbers don't matter. You don't go chopping off parts of your body to avoid infections, disease; you try to prevent the disease.
  #209  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:34
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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So, relax, the millions upon millions of people who've had it does are doing just fine.
Actually you are proof otherwise.
  #210  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:35
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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So you're basically saying that if breast cancer had a 20% rate, you would recommend all women chop off their breasts?!?!

Again, the numbers don't matter. You don't go chopping off parts of your body to avoid infections, disease; you try to prevent the disease.

No. What I'm saying is that you posted a wrong fact and I'm correcting you on it.
  #211  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:36
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Nah, it's more like chopping off the bottom third of your ear lobe to avoid brain cancer.
I don't get nearly as much pleasure from my earlobe . . .
  #212  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:36
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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But breast cancer is far more serious, isn't it?

Even if there is a chance of reducing the risk of herpes, isn't that a choice for an adult to make for themselves rather than the parents make the choice for the child?
I was just pointing out his facts were wrong.
  #213  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:36
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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No. What I'm saying is that you posted a wrong fact and I'm correcting you on it.
Context, baby, context.
  #214  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:37
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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With something like UTIs, how serious are these? I'm pretty sure most of these are just temporarily discomforting, so I'm not sure they can justify circumcision.
I don't know tbh, and I'm not inclined to spend the time looking it up.

As I mentioned, I'm not a fan of circumcision, however, our oldest had the chop at 3 due to constant infections. He was frequently in distress and was on and off antibiotics for a lot of the time. This played havoc with his diet and development (he's currently only just clinging on to the 10th percentile - he was tracking at the 50th before all this came on).

That aside, the GU surgeon explained that in infants (girls more than boys to be fair), there was a risk that infections at the tip of the penis could spread upwards to the bladder and in turn to the kidneys.

This could lead to longer term kidney complications, including failure.

After several attempts to control infections, the Drs advised the chop. It was not a decision we took lightly.

Our youngest (son) who is still "intact" has not had any such problems yet. And we hope he will not.

My main objection is that a blanket statement that there is no evidence of medical benefit is wrong. There is evidence, as has been shown several times over in this and t'other thread.

What people are objecting to is that they disagree with the risk/benefit justification based on medical grounds.

That's an important difference (to me anyway).
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  #215  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:37
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I don't get nearly as much pleasure from my earlobe . . .
Actually, I do ....
  #216  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:38
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Actually, I do ....
You get pleasure from my earlobe?

*changes locks*
  #217  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:38
porsch1909
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Context, baby, context.
Logical fallacy, baby, logical fallacy.
  #218  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:39
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I don't get nearly as much pleasure from my earlobe . . .
Studies have shown that there ain't that much pleasure derived from your foreskin either.
  #219  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:40
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Logical fallacy, baby, logical fallacy.
But you said it was a problem with a fact . . . are we talking empirical content or logic here?
  #220  
Old 29.07.2010, 15:41
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Studies have shown that there ain't that much pleasure derived from your foreskin either.
They're doing it wrong
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